TRANSCRIPT
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The Rabbi Daniel Lapin Podcast
Episode: She's Your Wife, Not Your Best Friend!
Date: 08/12/25 Length: 00:42:45
Daniel Lapin 0:00
Well, greetings, Happy Warriors and welcome to the Rabbi Daniel Lapin show where I your rabbi, but in this case, and his wife reveal how the world really looks exactly. It's the show where we speak about things that you actually do care about. And it's the show we speak about that shows the things that never change, that you have to depend upon in a world where everything changes very rapidly. And one of the things that has changed very rapidly are the statistics on men and their friends. Now you know that our entire system of life improvement, whether we're talking to ourselves or our children or we're working with people whom we are teaching to become effective coaches, we always stress the five F's, family, finance, faith, fitness, your relationship with your body, and finally, friendships, your social connections. And these apparently have undergone substantial change. We both became aware of a woman who's been writing for the New York Times. And her name is Catherine Pearson, and she did an article back in February of 2025, and then again in July of 2025 both on the same themes with slightly different emphasis. The first one she did was about what she called Man keeping and this is, it turns out, I
Susan Lapin 1:54
think it's the second one. I think that was the most recent one. And what was funny about it is, I wrote a music and I gave it to you for editing, which is how we do things we do they ask the rabbi we work on together. Thought tools, my husband writes and I edit, and my musings, I write and my husband edits, and I gave it, and my husband said, That's so strange. I just, I just did a Lapin lens on that, which, if you're a member, you have access to our Lapin lenses. If you're a special access member, actually, you have access to our Lapin lenses. And I he, I had not heard his Lapin lens. It had not aired yet, and yet I had written a musing on the same topic, which is very strange, because most of the time when one of us reads an interesting article, we share it. But somehow this one had gone under the radar, and each of us separately, had found it worthy of more discussion.
Daniel Lapin 2:45
Yeah, right. So basically, the starting point, I think, is that as recently as 1990 how long ago is that? Well, that's 30 that's 35 that's it's 35 years, but okay, in in sociological terms, you know, it's, it's a generation and a half. It's not even two generations, okay? But as recently as 35 years ago, a tiny, tiny proportion of men reported having very few male friends, like it was really like 2% of the population in America, but by 2024 it was coming close to 50% so it was a huge climb, a vast increase in the number of men who don't have a lot of male friends, to
Susan Lapin 3:41
the point that some have none, and many have one or two.
Daniel Lapin 3:45
Yes, that's right. Now, you'll remember we recently discussed unintended consequences, yes, and so I think the starting point, and in discussions with men, I've asked this question, and I've not had any guy yet push back on this, which is that a group of the dynamics in a group of men is entirely different from the dynamics in a group of men and women. And I'm not just talking about men being better behaved and more careful with their language. I'm talking about that's long gone. Yeah, that's gone, but, but really a difference in the dynamics and I stressed the importance of men being able to get together with men without women present, and the unintended consequence here is that over the 35 years we're talking about, one of the things that has happened is that women have pushed to eliminate and even to make illegal men's only get togethers. They're discriminatory. They are places where men advance one another. As business interests and keeping women out is to make sure that women are discriminated
Susan Lapin 5:05
against, valid and true. It's not that that's a that isn't an a ridiculous statement.
Daniel Lapin 5:11
It's a little bit, but not, not a
Susan Lapin 5:14
little bit. And in my musing, what I wrote, because one of the things you're that I don't think you mentioned in the article. The most recent article in The New York Times, she was talking that women are complaining about. It's now a new word, man keeping that it's too much to be your spouse's spouse. You now have to be in charge of their social life. You're everything. You're their best friend, and you are their social life, or you have to arrange for their social life because they don't have friends. And so I think that's an important element of that. In other words, women are now complaining after having spent years, as you said, saying we don't want you to have men only areas. Now they're complaining because there are men don't have other men to hang out with, because once you made those areas co Ed, men lost interest, or the interaction was completely different. They didn't end up having the same types of relationships they did when it was male only meeting.
Daniel Lapin 6:16
And there many examples. I think I remember when Rotary Club went past. Used to be men. Now that may be one of those cases where
Susan Lapin 6:26
there is a validity and not the it's, it's, if you want to talk about unintended consequences, one of the unintended consequences, there are many unintended consequences of encouraging women to see their life satisfaction as being out in the work world. One of the consequences is that you that it is unfair. Yes, if there is a male only gathering, of course, business gets done there, and so a woman is absolutely right for saying, I'm excluded. I don't know. Same shot.
Daniel Lapin 7:02
If you ladies, if you belong to the cohort of women who derive the Paramount joy and satisfaction in life from their relationship with their husband and children and with their family, if you are in that group of women, then it is distinctly to your disadvantage that your husband finds it harder today to have men friends than he used to. So let's talk for a moment now about why it is harder for men to have male friends and to start the ball rolling. One of them is that many men today work at home. Many, many more men than in 1990 35 years ago. Many more men work at home,
Susan Lapin 7:51
or if they go to the office, other people are working with fewer people who
Daniel Lapin 7:56
and so one of the most important areas where men formed male relationships is at work. And yes, I, you know, I don't think it's a great idea for guys to go to a bar after work, but I kind of understand you want to de stress a little bit from work before you head home, you hang out with the guys and or, you know, maybe you play a quick round of basketball or something before you go home. But there is such a thing as hanging out with the guys before you go home, and that is a positive and a good thing. And before we go to your thoughts on why it is now so much more difficult for men to form friendships with other men. Let's just also talk about the American Alliance of Jews and Christians,
Susan Lapin 8:48
which is for men and for women. Yes, it
Daniel Lapin 8:54
is. This is the the time of the year, one of the two times year where we speak about the American Alliance of Jews and Christians, and what it does in terms of providing a connection point for people, connecting over ideas, not over things or over
Susan Lapin 9:16
well, it's one of the things that makes this podcast possible, possible. The American Alliance of Jews and Christians sponsors this podcast, and very often on podcasts you mention and because they in the hope that they will be useful to people, various resources we have, or even membership in our We Happy Warriors community. But there are many people who don't they just don't want another email coming in. They they're at their max, and yet, they want to be givers. They don't want to just be someone who just takes by listening to the podcast and taking advantage of the wisdom that you give each week in the podcast, because human nature, healthy human nature, doesn't want to be only a taker. So there are many people who want to be givers, and the American Alliance of Jews and Christians is a nonprofit. Charity so you can it's a way to supporting the American Alliance of Jews and Christians is a way to ensure that this podcast continues.
Daniel Lapin 10:08
And if you think that secularism is best, well, first of all, if you agree that secularism exerts a Baleful and destructive effect on human society. And if you believe that the best way to defeat secularization is by Jews and Christians coming together to promote and advance a Bible based Judeo-Christian worldview, then perhaps you'd consider supporting the American Alliance of Jews and Christians and and the way to do that is to go to AAJC, standing for the American Alliance of Jews and Christians. Aajc, not.com aajc, dot O, R, g.org, and you might find it in your heart to help the work that we all do at the American Alliance of Jews and Christians, to help make all of that happen.
Susan Lapin 11:12
The podcast is very much a part of that. Another area where women have made their way into men's areas is in the church and the synagogue, oh yes, and that has been one of the fascinating things that that happens, is very often as women move into leadership positions, men's participation, not just as leaders, but even as participants, drops
Daniel Lapin 11:39
off. We know that one of the differences between Torah true normative Judaism, of which we are humble parts, and reform, or conservative Judaism, which isn't in the slightest bit politically conservative, but these are liberal groups who wanted to retain the cache of being part of a Jewish community without any of the irksome Old Testament rules about how we eat and how we live and what we do and when we do it. And so one of the things that they changed was worship services revolved primarily around men. You needed a minimum of 10 men for a prayer quorum. And so every single morning, we still do need it. You need it every single morning. You know, we I don't make it every morning, but the mornings I do make it, I will go to the synagogue. And you know, they're either a minimum of 10 men. Then where I go there's usually 30 or 40 or 50 men there 630, or seven in the morning, but sometimes I go to a smaller group and I might arrive, and I'm the eighth guy. And we, you know, we wait, and a few minutes later, the ninth guy walks in. A few minutes later, the 10th guy walks in. Everybody gives him a round of applause, and the prayers begin. And so conservative Judaism a number of years ago, like many 3040, years ago, came up with the idea, well, we're going to start counting women in the prayer quorum. Now the fact that we don't count women in the prayer is not discrimination against women. It's recognition that women achieve spiritual connection with God far more easily than men do. And in different ways, can
Susan Lapin 13:22
I just add something? It's that this isn't really, when you don't go, you are failing. Yes, it is an obligation. It's an obligation to go. And
Daniel Lapin 13:30
I've never found it to be fun. You're not big on it. You know, winter morning is freezing cold outside, and seven o'clock I'm heading out to
Susan Lapin 13:39
the so it's not been announced. We don't have a lot in Judaism. That is, if you feel like it, this is what it's an obligation or not, and we don't oblige women, because that would be in direct contrast to being able to be a mother or even just a wife, to be able to, you know, you'd have to choose, well, you're not gonna, I'm not gonna give my husband a nice breakfast because I'm out there in the synagogue. Yeah. So a woman, a woman can show up, but she will not count for the quorum because she's not obligated. You can only count if your is an obligation to be there. And one day, if you don't show up a lot, God is going to say, hey, you had an obligation and you didn't do it. This is a problem. We're going to have to talk
Daniel Lapin 14:16
right? And so when the conservative branch of Judaism introduced this revolutionary notion that women are going to count in the quorum. What they said is they tried to advocate for that and sell it. They said, look, it's going to mean there are many more morning services. Because you may have a morning service, you know, where they struggle to get seven or eight or nine guys, all of a sudden, you allow women to count, and it's going to be double the amount. So this is going to be a huge step forward in advancing morning services. Well, you won't be horrified to hear that it had exactly the reverse unintended consequence. 90s, women started coming and men dropped out,
Susan Lapin 15:03
and then women found that it actually is not so every morning,
Daniel Lapin 15:07
yeah, so having won the victory, they lost. They're having won the battle, they lost the war, and they're far fewer services now, because it was very difficult to get men to come back. By the way, the same error was made in the marketing of a pickup truck a number of years ago. And I don't remember if it was General Motors or Ford or Chrysler, but one of the pickups started running a series of advertisements marketing the pickup to women,
Susan Lapin 15:35
and they ended up losing no more women. They didn't
Daniel Lapin 15:39
get many women buying it, but the men didn't want to buy it here. Why? Because there's certain things you know you want to feel. A man wants to and needs to feel manly in a way that a woman never, never knows what it's not to feel, that it's a completely different kind of thing. And nobody ever says to a woman come or to a girl, come on, girl up, or woman up. But we say to men all the time, come on, man up and so we want to feel masculine and manly and and in every aspect of male female relationships, the action is called for on the part of the man, and he wants to be able to let me use the word perform. Men want to feel masculine. And so the pickup truck I was going to buy, I'm now being told, Hey, this is a girly pickup truck. I'm sorry I can't say I sit down and have a deep, long think session about it, but intuitively, just one of those things that just, I, you know, that pickup truck maybe subconsciously moves off my radar screen, coming
Susan Lapin 16:50
back to friendship. We were just, you were giving a speech. Last Friday. You gave a speech in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I did. And as you went in to get the rolly thing that to bring out to put suitcases on and an entire contingent of Harley's went by. That was a male bonding. Harley Davidson. Davidson is a male binder. Any girls riding pillow? They were riding fast. Certainly I didn't see anyone who looked like No, no, I'm not riding pillion. No one was writing pillion. But riding Could there have been no female rider? And that is very often what is held up as, what if there's a woman who really wants a pickup truck? What if there's a woman who really enjoys riding a Harley, but to give her the ability to do so, or encourage her to do so, destroy something in the process. And this is one of those things that our society has so much trouble with is there'll be an exceptional woman who has certain interests or an exceptional man who has certain interests. Yes, that's right. And in order to say, well, they mustn't be made to feel bad, you end up destroying an entire structure that's built. And so in the church I, and I do know this from churches, and I have actually heard a number of pastors talking, and I I may be offending some listeners. Maybe there are listeners who are women's who are pastors, but when there's a woman pastor who's giving leadership, that's a I'm not the pastors I listen to, so they'll quote the New Testament. I'm not going to do that. That's not my place. But in terms of, is something being taken away from the man? Are the men subtly being discouraged from leadership? And he said, That's not fair. Why should that be? She's a fantastic I happen to be a pretty good teacher. I think I teach women, and I don't appreciate getting up in front of an audience. I certainly don't teach Torah to men, because although I, quite frankly, in all honesty, would know more than many men, and I could be a good teacher, it will emasculate them to hear Torah being taught by me. And that's not worth whatever.
Daniel Lapin 18:59
So it's a little odd because we've known, you know, some really terrific female preachers, church leaders. We've known a few really, really compelling Yes. And then on the Jewish side, there was Mrs. Jung rice Yes, who was a Rabbi's wife who spoke to men, and these were effective. I also know that many of my Christian friends and colleagues are negative for the same reason you just said they're negative about women preachers, and I know Samuel Johnson was as well, many, many years ago. But regardless of that, the point we're making is that men, men's groups, men's alliances, are really valuable. And what I want to do is go through why they're valuable in all the other four of the five F's, okay, so the 5f are friendship and.
Susan Lapin 20:00
And how does it relate to
Daniel Lapin 20:03
fitness and faith? So let's first talk about this will be easy to sort of get it rolling. How does men's friendship fit into finance?
Susan Lapin 20:15
Well, that's easy because it's very often a source of leads or advice, or whatever, whatever employment. It's a wonderful the friendships with other men leads, very often to increase even I'm gonna say, sorry, the competition. I think there's a certain comparative and so if you hear that your friends, I'll tell
Daniel Lapin 20:38
you where they'll come up more. When we talk about fitness, that's where it'll really
Susan Lapin 20:42
come up. I think does it not come up in Financials? I think it does. Yes, you want to be able
Susan Lapin 20:47
to reciprocate. If a friend is giving you something, you want to be able worth money. You want to be able to reciprocate.
Daniel Lapin 20:52
Yes, or a friend calls you and makes an introduction to somebody and you look forward to a chance to do the same thing. Straightforward, the boundary line between friendship and finance is very blurry. How about the boundary line between friendship and fitness? How does that work?
Susan Lapin 21:14
Well, to start where we ended with the competitiveness.
Daniel Lapin 21:19
It's also going to be noticed a lot easier. If I have a male friend, I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't have a female friend, but it's unthinkable to even think of doing this. But if I had a male friend and we arranged to meet at the gym three mornings a week, it's guaranteed that I will be a more reliable worker outer at the gym than if I didn't have that male friend. It's huge. Just the fact hanging around fit healthy guys means there is subtle pressure on me to do the same.
Susan Lapin 21:58
Let me ask you a question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. It's always dangerous to ask a question when you
Susan Lapin 22:03
don't know what's coming in public, but
Susan Lapin 22:05
women, myself included, tend to nag very much. Have you know you need to, we need to schedule a physical few we need to, you need to do this test. You need to do the A, B or C. And it very easily becomes nagging that gets ignored. But if you had a male friend who said, you know, I just had my ex tested, and I really am so glad I did it because I found out this, that would probably push you more.
Daniel Lapin 22:32
It probably would also, I think very few husbands see that as nagging. I'm not quite sure why not, but I think you know, sometimes you know, you even take it into your own hands. You'll actually make a call and set up an
Susan Lapin 22:45
appointment. I wish I could, if I had your full schedule, I would, but it's hard. You've done you've
Daniel Lapin 22:49
done it from time to time say, I can't say that. Guys find that to be nagging. There are other areas, more I'll talk about it more, no not talking. Then it becomes nagging. But, well, you don't act. I have to talk. There is a very specific action, you know, we've got to, you know, see the dermatologist, or whatever it is, but, but, yeah, but, but yes, many of those things would come more effectively and better for the marriage if it came from an outside friend rather than from a spouse. So friends and fitness,
Susan Lapin 23:24
faith, we covered a little bit, and that the faith worship is and Bible study and every all of those things, there's a different feel to an all male group. There are different statements that people are comfortable making. There are different questions people are comfortable asking, and there's a different and there's a different mentorship that you feel in a faith society, that there, again, from where we come from, from a religious observance, area of Judaism, it's just a given. It's just a given that they're going to be men only and women only spaces. Yeah,
Daniel Lapin 24:00
for sure that, and it really works. Well, I don't, I don't think again. You'll, you'll write and comment in the we happy warriors website. You'll let me know how you feel about this idea that men's groups are not only distinctive and different when they are without women, but that they are desirable and yet. Back again to the family area. One of the things that happens with men who hang out with other men is that all the men's testosterone levels rise, and that is good for their wives. It's a good thing
Susan Lapin 24:38
I'll just mention because for many years, when we had our synagogue in Southern California, there was a the introductory level Bible class was for men and women. And when you mentioned rebberton Young Rice, who was a tremendous teacher, her what she did for men and women was also introductory. In other words, it was people had to get people. Couldn't hear I shouldn't come with my wife when they don't know anything about it, yes, but they but once, as you got to anything above the introductory level, the men and the women separated, yeah, that introductory level
Daniel Lapin 25:11
that was in a religious environment, like in our environment, I have plenty opportunities to hang out with men. Every prayer service alone is one, all right, on its own, there are very often Bible study classes, and as Susan said, other than the introductory level, those are so in a way, this is again, a division, is it not? This is division we wrote about in America's real war back in the 90s, that the division in America today is most decidedly not between people of different skin color, not between men and women, and not between different income levels, the primary difference in the primary Canyon through American culture at the moment is between people who view Judeo Christian values as as vital for the nation's survival, and on the Other side, people who view Judeo Christian values as primitive obstructions to progress, because on this matter of male friends, and we've spoken how important it is in the interface between faith And friendship and physical fitness and friendship and finance and friendship. But the gap in America, I think, is between religious and non religious people, because I think the opportunities for men to form friendship with other men is they are more available to church going people than to secular people.
Susan Lapin 27:05
I agree with you, but I think that it goes beyond that. I think that a little bit that's a little rose colored glasses, because I think the influence of the what would have been clearly seen as something that didn't belong in a religious community 40 years ago, is not so clearly seen as not belonging in a religious community today. So I think that if you would have asked my parents, or your parents, should each of us, is it okay to have a friendship with someone from the opposite sex, they would have said, No, I don't think that's clear today, even among people who go to church or synagogue. In other words, the society has in has so you get you, you do get affected by the messages around you. And so I don't think it is as easy to divide as you say.
Daniel Lapin 27:55
All right. Again, it's a self selecting group, I suppose. But I can't think of any of my pastor friends who would not speak against married people.
Susan Lapin 28:06
But again, that's the self selecting group. What I'm saying is when you say, how do you want to define men you want to if you wanted to find religious as people who show up in church or synagogue at least once a
Daniel Lapin 28:16
week? Do you know any synagogue that we're familiar with where, where married men being friendly with women would be okay,
Susan Lapin 28:29
no, but we are a very self selecting. In other words, I think that, I think that using the edge of what you would define as religious has has moved to be a much, much smaller group. And by definition, I think this is a very big danger. It's very arrogant and hubristic and dangerous to say I don't get affected because I am in this community. No, we do get because you do. And the problems may be a little slower in coming, sometimes recognizing the problem is slower in coming where the secular society has already realized. And I'll give you an example if we move now into the field of how the friendships affect family. So we, I think we opened this podcast talking about women complaining that they don't want to be their husband's best friend, right? Yes, well, so now this is a sec. This is secular. These are secular women. This is in the New York Times. And
Daniel Lapin 29:18
by the way, just to clarify, I think when some people hear us say that, why would it say, you know, my spouse and we are best friends, we should get back to that, but it's and so we should correct or clarify what we mean by anyway, diminishing the depth and power of your relationship, we're saying it's not quantitatively different. It's qualitatively different. The relationship between a husband and wife is so very different from the relationship between friends and both are needed.
Susan Lapin 29:50
So in this New York Times article, she's talking that women are complaining about man keeping that they have to be their husband's best friend. And yes, we can discuss why that's a problem. I. But I found fascinating that in the article, women were talking about it. They were not one, one, not one of these women suggested that their husbands should become friends, that they might set up a play date, quote, unquote, with their husband and another female. But that has been a mantra of secular society, platonic friendships. We can have platonic why would you not have a friendship? Not everything is about sex. You don't have to write platonic friendships. All of a sudden, in this article, platonic friendships were out the window.
Daniel Lapin 30:31
Oh, that's a really
Susan Lapin 30:33
good point. So what I'm saying is that I think that sometimes I do believe religious communities have been affected by the platonic friendship argument. And in some ways, I think secular society may be coming to the realization, oh, this was really a bad idea, and it may take meanwhile we lag religious community, just like they lagged in approving a platonic friendships. Yes, friendships, it's possible they'll lag in disapproving of them. Oh, so I
Daniel Lapin 31:00
am so I said to just make sure I understand your point, because if I do, it's a terrific point, which is that the for years and years and years all you read about, I mean, again, I regard the New York Times as sort of
Susan Lapin 31:15
secular, the face of
Daniel Lapin 31:18
secularism. And certainly you remember, you remember Dina scanned hundreds and hundreds of new which I happen to have looked at yesterday. They were really well done. It's very helpful. But even there, I have news clippings speaking about how important it is to have varied friends and that and that, there's nothing wrong with men and women. It
Susan Lapin 31:46
was encouraged for a long time. It was encouraged, yeah, look at them. Look at the show Friends, which, of course, was a huge
Daniel Lapin 31:53
married people. I
Susan Lapin 31:56
even sorry, I think the same thing for not with that's a separate podcast that's
Daniel Lapin 32:00
we're talking about married right now. And do you remember that hike we did to the waterfall in Washington State, though, and what happened
Susan Lapin 32:08
so was a we were taking a hike as a family, but we came across a group of mothers with a lot of kids in backpacks. It was really sweet. It seemed like it was a mother's group. Was a mother's outing, a mother's group, and there was one man,
Daniel Lapin 32:23
obviously a stay at home husband and we both looked at the animated way he and one of the moms were interacting as they were making their way up the trail and and then I think we met them again, coming back the other way.
Susan Lapin 32:40
Push. At that point, there was such a big push, you've got to include the stay at home, dad. It's not that they're so lonely. You must include them.
Daniel Lapin 32:47
So we don't know the end of the story, but we predicted calamity, because they were having a fine time, that pair. And yeah, well, the end of the story is not certain, but somewhat predictable and and so Okay, so we're saying that ideally, men would be able to access and through men's groups at church, would have access to Men's but I am now agreeing with you, because I'm just realizing something else that I've become aware of only actually in the last few hours today, as a result of a phone call I had that that in both synagogues and churches, In both and I'm talking about Bible believing religiously committed God, fearing churches and synagogues, because they're the other kinds as well. The biblical vision of a strong man has been eroded, yes
Susan Lapin 33:57
or and disdained. Eroded maybe
Daniel Lapin 34:01
I wasn't going to go as far as disdain, maybe right, but certainly eroded, and it's not being produced. So although you will find men's groups in churches and synagogues, religiously committed churches and synagogues, you will find but those men's groups themselves have become slightly feminized
Susan Lapin 34:26
in many I agree, many of them are very much
Daniel Lapin 34:31
and I want to just on that point. I just feel a need to add one more caveat, which is that feminizing is the default condition. And I think this may be one of the most important points I'm making during this course of this podcast, which is winding down to its conclusion. I believe this is one of the most important points that ancient Jewish wisdom conveys, and that is not widely understood. And that is that, by the nature of things, men will devolve in a feminine direction in the absence of serious masculine energy being injected
Susan Lapin 35:17
as the the spiritual gravity leads. And that's everything. Isn't it true that that fetuses start out as female and then at
Daniel Lapin 35:24
about seven weeks, there is some
Susan Lapin 35:26
injection, there
Daniel Lapin 35:27
is, there is, there's a testosterone injection. So even XY babies that are destined to become male look the same as xx,
Susan Lapin 35:39
and we've spoken a lot in some of our physical
Daniel Lapin 35:44
the physical reflects the spiritual, and the model that God puts in place in utero is a reflection of reality later on. And there again, we find that for a fetus to develop properly as a male, it needs an injection of testosterone, and later on. We know that most cultures, including Judaism, recognize the necessity of acculturating men, not women. Same
Susan Lapin 36:15
thing. We know that acculturating women lately, but yes, yeah, no, that's right. So if you're not, a very unhealthy a woman. Women will a girl
Daniel Lapin 36:23
will naturally interfere with a man, if not interfered with, will become a weak and non dangerous man. But in fact, what we want are, I'm using the word advisor, the dangerous men is what we really want, capable of danger. Yes, that's right, obviously, with self restraint and control, but you want a potentially dangerous man. So
Susan Lapin 36:49
just to come back to you, was saying, and I think, are you? Are you disagreeing with me? Let me give you an example. There's a sensitivity. In other words, you're a married couple, right? But if you had all these friendships with women before you were married, there's a sensitivity that says I'm not going to talk to her on Facebook anymore because I I have to cut that off. And that's where I feel that when you say with married women still have a relationship or a friendship. In other words, I think I'll give you an example just from our own life. A friend of mine passed away now that we pay a Shiva call, we go to the house of mourning. Her husband was during the week, during the week, immediately after the barrel, there were no children, so he was sitting by he was the only one sitting by himself. I did not go by myself to pay that Shiva call, because I either would either go with you or a few of us women went together a few of her friends, which is what happened. That's
Daniel Lapin 37:46
how I because you might have found yourself sitting alone with him, and
Susan Lapin 37:50
it would be not that no one is suspecting that anything untoward would happen, but that this should be a sensitivity of now, we don't have a relationship, yeah, and we
Daniel Lapin 38:01
shouldn't, and I'm not sure that nothing would happen, not then and there, but when a circumstance of emotional intimacy arises, I think you actually have to make an effort for it, not so to develop and
Susan Lapin 38:20
evolve. What I would say is that having, having been surrounded by a culture that says platonic relationships is fine, I don't think the minute you get married, it all of a sudden you just turn off and say, oh, all these friendships that meant a great deal to me no longer exist.
Daniel Lapin 38:35
They must be turned off.
Susan Lapin 38:37
They must well, maybe, well, we can go back. Maybe we would recommend not having them in the first place. But I'm saying I don't. So when you're saying I do think it has affected the marriages that this concept of platonic friendships has affected, versus I want you to have male friends and you want me to have female friends. Yeah,
Daniel Lapin 38:55
I'm, as you know, I'm ceaselessly fascinated by ask Auntie letters or agony column letters,
Susan Lapin 39:05
I think they haven't been called agony column.
Susan Lapin 39:07
Or I was looking at two generations, Dear Abby generations.
Susan Lapin 39:12
But so there are the whatever that the where women write in their questions. Now it's a therapist they write into, where they write into, yeah, they write to the therapy. I
Daniel Lapin 39:20
find them seriously, ceaselessly fascinating, because one of them on this topic, one of them is the woman, and I've seen several examples of that in the last year or two, where the woman writes in and says, How do I get my husband to see there's nothing wrong with me having dinner with a friend. We've been friends since I was 12, and and just because I'm married is not a reason to end that friendship a guy obviously. Okay, yeah, yeah, we deal with that a lot. Okay, so All right, so bringing this in for a landing. Is there anything else we've got to say about the interface between friendship and family?
Susan Lapin 39:59
Well. Well, if we wanted to go on and on, I'm not sure we shouldn't save it for the bonus podcast, just because I think the time is moving on. But specifically so, why do men need? What do men get? What is the value of male friendships? Aside, we sort of attacked. We said, okay, there's a value to your finances, to your fitness, to your faith and to your family. But what really does, because a male friendship and a female friendship very often two women or two men look very different, or they're not just, they're not just, you know, with different participants, they actually and I thought maybe in the bonus podcast, it'll be interesting to look about how to recognize and how to cultivate male friendships, which is a very, very different way. Well, one of
Daniel Lapin 40:43
the things we talk about in the bonus is a an evolutionary biologist at Oxford. And I never agree with those guys, but they're always interesting. He discovered, and this is something we've been speaking about for years and years, but he actually independently came up with this as well, and he said that when men interact with men, it's most often more a side by side interaction, whereas when women interact with one another, it's more often a face to face. Now we're going to talk more about that in the bonus podcast for members of the we happy warrior community, which
Susan Lapin 41:26
we hope you are, we hope you'll join us there, and maybe we can just remind people please help keep this if you find this a valuable podcast, do help us out at American Alliance of Jews and Christians, which does promote this podcast and so much more of the work that we do.
Daniel Lapin 41:44
So head over to www dot aajc, American Alliance of Jews and Christians aajc.org, and see if your heart leads you in the direction of associating with us in terms of finances as well. So until our next podcast, which actually is going to be somewhat related next week's podcast, if I'm fortunate enough to have your participation, we're actually going to be talking about women's friendships. We spent most of today talking about men's friendships. Am I right about that? Can I get a commitment on that? Yeah, all right, great. That'll be next week, but until then, wishing you a journey climbing onwards and upwards in your families, your friendships, your faith, your finances and your fitness. I'm Rabbi Daniel Lapin,
Susan Lapin 42:41
and I'm Susan Lapin,
Daniel Lapin 42:42
and we say to you, God bless you.
