TRANSCRIPT
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The Rabbi Daniel Lapin Podcast
Episode: Should Jews Leave America? | The Fate of Jews and the West
Date: 10/02/2026 Length: 00:58:02
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (00:01)
Greetings, everybody, and welcome to the Rabbi Daniel Lapin show, where Susan and I are absolutely thrilled to welcome not only you, but our special guest, Josh Hammer. And Josh is an old friend and a courageous and longtime warrior in the trenches of defense of the West and also a staunch and a deeply committed Jew and the title of his newest book, which has been doing very well. I mean, everybody I talk to has read it or seen it or knows about it. It's called Israel and civilization, the destiny of please help me the exact title, I don't have it in front of me.
Josh Hammer (00:53)
The Fate of the Jewish Nation and the Destiny of the West.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (00:55)
The fate of the Jewish nation, the destiny of the West. Exactly. so are you happy with how the book's been doing?
Josh Hammer (01:05)
Rabbi and Rebbetzin great to great to join you both. I appreciate the conversation. So yet yes, this book came out it was actually my first full-length book. It came out in last March, March 2025. And listen, I mean it got off to a to a rip roaring start for whatever for whatever that's worth. It actually reached a high of the number three book on all of Amazon.com, like literally number three, was behind I believe a Tony Robbins self-help book and a Hunger Games novel, but it at its peak.
I'm actually working on my on my next book right now, so put a little you know feather on a cap perhaps for a future conversation. The current book that I'm toward still towards the beginning, but still very much in the middle of drafting. It's called Covenant and Constitution, How the Hebrew Bible Made Christian America. So that will that will be out
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (01:49)
Beautiful.
Josh Hammer (01:49)
God willing in about a year, year and a half somewhere in that time.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (01:52)
Well, I very much look forward to us talking about that when it's out.
Susan Lapin (01:56)
One of the frustrating
Josh Hammer (01:57)
Likewise.
Susan Lapin (01:58)
things when you're writing a book, first of all, there's the writing that takes a long time. And then there's you have to wait for it to be published. So what are you kicking yourself and saying, I can't believe this isn't in the book from last March? This is what I really wish I would have been able to add in. Because it seems to me that things on the ground are changing so quickly that a lot of things are old literally the day after they happen.
Josh Hammer (02:21)
It's a wonderful question. So at the time, what I was really doing in this first book, Israel civilization. So this is a book that was written not in response to the Hamas Pogrom itself of October 7th, 2023. It was written in response to the response, to the 30 plus Harvard student groups that were organizing to say the Jews that the Jews were responsible for their own horrific murders. the various Rallies in downtown New York City, Times Square, Chicago, Michigan Avenue, et cetera, et cetera. It was written in response to that. And in my book I identified three broader enemies of biblical civilization, Judeo-Christian civilization, which I refer to as wokeism, Islamism, and global neoliberalism. The latter most is a little, a little more amorphous compared to the other two, which are pretty crisp. Global neoliberalism to me essentially refers to the UN, to global institutions that are essentially committed, as I sometimes cheekily put it, to the John Lennon Imagine project of essentially trying to eradicate all of the things that make us human in the first place. Essentially trying to eradicate borders and religion and all the things that make us something other than just a citizen of the world. So this homogenizing imperative, if you will. So to me, those are the three enemies of biblical Judeo-Christian civilization. What I did not talk a whole lot about in that first book, and this is definitely one of if not the major reason that I'm writing now another book in fairly short order, is the rise of a really, really pernicious strand of not just anti-Semitism, but historical rewriting. And that is coming from an unfortunate and at times uncomfortable place. It's coming from some people who.
Are even doing are even doing so, purporting sometimes who speak in the name of Christianity. And the word purporting is doing a lot of work there. Because we see the rise now of some folks like Tucker Carlson who are who are trying to essentially rewrite the Hebrew Bible, rewrite the Torah, rewrite the entire story of the children of Israel, rewrite all this out of the Western canon. And in fact, as Tucker Carlson put it in the conversation last November with Meghan Kelly.
He said that the New Testament alone is responsible for America and Western civilization, which is a rather astonishing claim. And it calls to mind whether or not he's actually ever been to Philadelphia and seen the Liberty Bill, right?
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (04:43)
Yeah.
Josh Hammer (04:44)
and but that is kind of the context that I'm writing in this current book that was largely missing from my first book. It appears sometimes in the book, but it was not a major focus, but it will be a major focus of this new book.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (05:00)
So so something that Susan and I have been very obsessed with for a long time now really is that exactly something that's close to your heart as well, which is that indeed, yes, Western civilization sprang from the pages of the Bible, from the Old Testament primarily. And it is the Old Testament that contains all the rules and rituals and regulations of the fundamental boundaries that make a civilization possible, male-female relationships, financial relationships. And that's where these things are embedded, and out of that comes what we know of as Western civilization. And in your first book, of course, you link the fate of the Jewish nation with the destiny of the West. And I'd love to hear you spend a moment or two on that linkage because what flows from that I think is that when we speak about the defence of Israel and the future of Israel, it's not the same as discussing what might happen to Sri Lanka or Bangladesh. What we're talking about is essentially the fate of what we think of as Western civilization itself.
Josh Hammer (06:25)
Right. So the first thing to note here is I I I think a lot of people when they hear the word Israel, they not unreasonably think of the modern nation states. And the first thing to note is that the word Israel in the title of my first book, Israel and civilization, is something of a double entra. It's referring, yes, to the monarch it is referring to the monarchy of Israel, it's also referring to the Jewish people, to Khal Israel, to Am Israel, as we would say in the Hebrew, to the nation of Israel, the children of Israel.
In the book. And these two things are, of course, inextricably linked. But I think that's the very first thing to note. So what I do in the first book, Israel civilization, is among other things, I talk about how some of the most foundational, basic, rudimentary teachings, things that Rabbi, you've been discussing for decades in highly eloquent, and largely disseminated fashion, some of these teachings really have just deeply, deeply shaped all that we take for Brandon Stay, frankly, without even thinking or realizing it. And I think I'm actually personally a rather instructive example here because I grew up very secular. I grew up very secular, assimilated. I am what we would say, Balta Shuva. I've only come religious, praise be to God, in my adult years. And I think about the way that I was taught
Something as such something such as the golden rule, you know, treat others as you'd like to be treated. You know, when I was taught that back in kindergarten or first grade, I wasn't told that this was a Levitical concept, but in many ways it really is. You know, this notion of treat others as you like to be treated, what is it? Well, it's really just downstream of Leviticus chapter 19, verse 18. The notion that they should treat the stranger as your fellow. In fact, I don't want to get too off topic. But this new movie out Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, there's a I I don't want to get too deep in this here, but even Christopher Nolan, who's making a movie about an ancient pagan civilization, that which of course w what ancient Greece was, he puts into the narrative this notion of Zeus's law, which is not as far as I can tell, it's not actually a thing. I'm not an expert on ancient Greece, but I don't think
Zeus's law is a thing, but it's all throughout the narrative of the Odyssey. And what is Zeus's law in the movie? Well, in the movie, it refers to the hospitality that someone must show to a guest in his home because you don't know whether that person might actually be a god in disguise, which is which essentially is just a twist on this Hebraic concept of treat others as we'd like to be treated. This is a core foundational concept of of the West. The entire notion of individual moral birth and dignity. I mean, this is as bread and butter as it gets.
You know, speaking of the ancient Greeks, you know, Aristotle, Plato, they said a lot of very smart things. They definitely did not believe in anything remotely resembling Genesis 127. They definitely did not believe in anything remotely resembling the notion that all of mankind is made in the image of God, but Selmelkim in the Hebrew, Mago Dei, as our Catholic friends know it, know it as. This was totally absent in the ancient pagan world. This is the basis today for the entire notion of equal protection under law.
The entire notion of individual rights in general. When Thomas Jefferson was running the Declaration of Independence, which we just celebrated the 250th anniversary of, when he was essentially copying and pasting the rhetoric from John Locke's second treatise about a century prior, you know, these men, Locke Jefferson, were they just thinking in abstract terms here? I mean, were they really thinking, in other words, was it really, really self-evident to use the Lockean and Jeffersonian rhetoric? Was it really truly axiomatic? Was it truly self-evident?
That all men are created equal? In other words, would it be equally self evident to the sub Saharan tribal African warlord? Would it be equally self-evident to the Taliban jihadist who is in in the mountains of Afghanistan? And the answer is it is obviously no. It would not be. rather
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (10:14)
No. mean Locke - Locke devotes another one of his treatises almost entirely to quotes from the Bible.
Josh Hammer (10:21)
That's right. And it's only self-evident for these men because they are thinking and writing a certain context and a certain Milo. So anyway, to get back to your very profound question is how does how do these things relate? How does the fate of the nation of Israel in both the modern state and the Jewish people fashion, how does that comport to the fate of the West? Well, very simply, Rabbi, you cannot cut off the trunk of the tree with without the w without the tree ultimately falling down.
And another thing that I find fascinating, and this is very much in my current book projects, Covenant and Constitution as well, is that there's a lot of talk, a lot of debate these days about Christian Zionism. And one of the psuchim, one of the verses in in in the Torah that that is most quoted by some of our Christian Zionist friends, is Genesis chapter twelve, verse three, where God famously says to Abraham that he will bless those who bless you, your descendants, and curse those who curse you. And one thing that strikes me is
It doesn't actually matter whether you believe this. I mean, to be clear, I believe the whole Bible, but i speaking more generally, it's somewhat besides the point whether an individual believes this theologically or not, because it's actually an ironclad rule of history. Like, really, is there a s is there a single example of a people, nation, or empire that has turned on the Jews and been better off for it? I think the answer is no.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (11:38)
Don't you read aren't you eager to see what the history books will make of France in the latter twentieth and early twenty first century that decided logically and rationally to switch their Jewish population for a Muslim population? And how's that working out for you guys?
Josh Hammer (11:59)
Yeah, exactly. I mean I listen, I mean, on the one hand I eagerly anticipate those history books. On the other hand, I think I know what those books will say. I mean, look at the Babylonians, look at the Romans in ancient times, in more contemporary times, the Nazis may the names be erased, the communists, the Soviets. I mean it's everywhere. Those who turn on the Jews, they ultimately are setting themselves up for rune.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (12:21)
And what you're saying, what you're really saying, I think, not to put words in your mouth, but I think what you're saying is this is not a metaphysical lightning bolts from heaven type of thing. Since Judaism is inextricably linked
Josh Hammer (12:34)
Yes.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (12:34)
to the roots of civilization, sever the plant from those roots and don't be surprised what happens.
Josh Hammer (12:41)
Yes, that's exactly right. So the Jewish people were the first people to bring the Word of God into the world. So what does that actually mean? They were the they were the first people to introduce to the world the concept of monotheism, and that therefore the corollary to that is that there is moral objectivity. In other words, they were rejecting the moral subjectivity, otherwise known as idolatry, those are essentially synonyms. They were rejecting the then ubiquitous idolatry of the times. So
when you are rejecting the Jewish people, you're actually rejecting that that moral certitude, you're actually rejecting that moral objectivity. You are fundamentally re rejecting the notion that we can discern fact from fiction, that we can that we can discern truth from lies. You are rejecting the entire notion that there are moral absolutes, that that that there are that there is objective good and there is objective bad, which by the way, Rabbi, is my theory, actually.
As to why anti-Semitism, even in this great country, is more on the rise right now than it has been at any time in in recent memory, because we live in i in very confused times where there are a lot of the there's a lot of well deserved lack of trust in institutions, in elites, in authorities, in the media and things like that. And therefore, people many times really are struggling to separate what is true from what is a lie, what is fact from fiction. And unfortunately, history tells us.
Who are the recipients of that systemic moral confusion and that is the Jewish people.
Susan Lapin (14:13)
So do you see the because there really is a Jew hatred in a way that certainly I never saw in America growing up. I don't think my parents saw it in America growing up. There's a level of and we talk we're talking from politicians, and we're not talking about from some podcaster or some random person. We're talking about people who are running on a platform and what they'll say is, I really love Jews. I just hate Israel. But that's a very, very thin veneer.
And you can see it from the behavior. Mamdani's behavior to the Jewish community, you know, is very evident. Is this a thermometer of what's going on in the culture? Or is it one can only say that a lot of time hatreds of Jews is really an infectious disease, kind of like the Salem Witch trial, where something just takes over and it's out of control. And there's nothing you can do to there's nothing you can say rationally or logically.
I mean the fact that there are queers for Palestine where they would be dead if they would walk into a Muslim country, they will be killed. And yet they're out there - there's nothing rational or logical about it.
Josh Hammer (15:22)
Yeah, you know, on the latter point, I actually recently debated on the Piers Morgan show. I debated a homosexual British man would never heard by the name of Owen Jones, who was a left-wing provocator and viciously, viciously anti-Israel. And I actually raised this exact point. I actually said, Well, have you tried trying to walk into Judean Samaria or into Gaza with a big sign that says, I am a homosexual? I mean, let's see how that actually play plays out. I mean the entire notion of so-called queers for Palestine, which is a thing, just j just underscores the absolute moral and intellectual absurdity of the basic intersectional woke premise, which is this bizarre coalition of claimed aggrieved interests, right? Of people who have been oppressed in some capacity. I think back also to the women's march, which started surely after Trump was inaugurated the first time in twenty seventeen. At at the time the head was a woman by the name of Linda Sarsor who wears the hijab and
Has a history on social media of praising Sharia law and what it says about things like interest payments and credit cards, which makes me want to say, hmm, you're leading the women's march. Can we talk about what Sharia law says about women? I mean, the whole thing is just a it's an absolutely absurd, absurd can of can of worms. But yes, look, I mean, to your point, it's bad. I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna short code it. mean, I live in Florida, where as you both know, I live in Florida with my family.
And it's a bit of a bubble here, immediately, where I live. I don't necessarily think and feel anti-Semitism on a day-to-day basis. I just don't, the same way that I think some of my co-religionists might in Zohran Mamdani's New York City or in various other far-left jurisdictions. But the data don't lie. The data are very clear that that anti-Jewish hate crimes are a shockingly high percentage of all hate crimes in places like New York City. Frankly, even in a state that I used to live in, the great state of Texas.
This year, in two thousand twenty six, anti Semitic hate crimes are actually five percent so far, according to Texas DPS statistics, of all hate crimes in the state of Texas. And that's you know, five percent is not massive, but it's way out of proportion to what Jews in Texas are at a percentage of the population. So listen, am I worried about the future of America? Yes. Am I worried about the future of the Jewish people? No. And that's a very important distinction to make. And that's actually, again, why I ran this current book, Covenant and Constitution, because I think about the future of the Jews. I'm actually not worried at all. First and foremost, we have a covenant. Okay. We have Hashem, we have God, we have a covenant that has not gone anywhere, and we've been here for a very, very long time. As many smart people in history, people like people like John Adams, people like Benjamin Disraeli, as many people have noted,
Arguably the strongest proof of God's existence is the fact that the original chosen people are still here today. So we have that going for us, and that that comforts me a lot. There's also a Jewish state. So those things bring me a lot of comfort when it comes to the future of the Jewish people. However, I am also a staunch American patriot. I've never called any other country home. I was born on Abraham Lincoln's birthday.
I clerked for a federal appeals judge. I've written constitutional scholarship. I adore the constitution. I love this country so, so, so, so much. And I am terrified by the future of my country. And when I see things like the rise of anti-Semitism pop up in this country, that's what I think of. I don't think about the future of the Jews, because again, the Jews are going to be okay. What I'm really worried about is the future of the United States. And perhaps the ultimate fear, the ultimate fear.
Is where you have a political spectrum, a two-party system that we're not there to be clear, but it starts to kind of sort of resemble Weimar era Germany, where you have the communists on one hand and then the jackboot fascists on the other hand. Now, again, we're not we're not anywhere close that yet. I'm not trying to paint an imminent picture. I'm not trying to say pack up and leave today or God forbid. That's not what I'm saying. But you can you can see how that trend is like very, very slowly incrementally.
Possibly coming into picture. In fact, my friend Rod Dreher, his current book project is actually titled Weimar America. And the intro chapter for my current book is technically titled also Weimar America. I probably will change it out of out of respect to my good friend Rod, but that's the point. The point is that this duality between communism and not fascism, but s some sort of authoritarian, curious brand of political rightism, shall we say.
That's a potentially harrowing thing for sure.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (20:00)
So if the democratic socialists of America really just another form of communism as they themselves claim, which is essentially godless and human centric, how do they make common cause with the Islamists? you know, the guy who won the democratic primary for the Senate in Michigan. Or the many now members of Congress who are Moslems, and yet they are also making an alliance with the socialists in in a how does that work?
Josh Hammer (20:42)
It's a great question. And the answer is that it doesn't work because of any kind of intellectual kumbaya that they're having. Rather, they just share an enemy. It's the i it's a very old saying that the enemy of my enemy of my enemy is my friend or something along those lines with what is what's happening here. Because their mutual enemy is modern Western civilization. Their mutual enemy is the biblical inheritance. I mean, think about the original communist himself. Think about Karl Marx. As I as I like to point out, before Karl Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto, before that, he had his essay on the Jewish question, one of the one of the all-time most infamous self-hating, actually, because he was the grandson believe of an Orthodox rabbi, one of the all-time horrific self-hating anti-Semitic tracts. So Marx, in in logical fashion, and is logical fashion, it's diabolical, but it's logical, first lays out his animus of the Jewish people, and only then
Lays out his goal to subvert and overthrow all of modern Western dumb and Christendom and because they're essentially one and the same thing. So the Islamists share that goal, to be clear. The Islamists absolutely share that goal of subverting this this broader moral order. They have actually something much firmer in mind to replace it with. It's called Sharia law. And they therefore want to undo this from within.
You look at some what some of some of the more radical candidates say. I mean, I Abdul El-Sayed was campaigning as on final day on the campaign trail before the primary with Hasan Piker, who has infamously said that America deserved 9/11 A lot a lot of these folks also say, actually, the co chair of the DSA nationally, this girl by the name of Romer, was recently on a podcast where she said that October seventh, 2023 was inevitable.
I mean, you see what you see what's happening here. They're talking about physically and morally and intellectually all of it, just uprooting all that we call the West from within. So I think that's really what really what's happening here. I think it's also worth noting that there is a similar a similar commonality between Islamism and Marxism, not just in the mutual enemy, but also they have they do have at least one love in common as well.
And that love is violence. That love is violence. I'd like to point out frequently that the modern left right nomenclature for a political divide actually goes back to late eighteenth century France and the end of the monarchy and the revolution.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (23:16)
French National Assembly.
Josh Hammer (23:18)
Exactly. So the left at the time was most associated with the revolutionaries, with the Jacobins and ultimately Robespierre, the Reign of Terror. That that that is leftism at its core is this fetishization of violence. As Hasan Piker himself says, he is called for the blood of capitalists on the streak. That sentiment would have fit at home very, very nicely in 1792 era revolutionary France.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (23:46)
Yes.
Josh Hammer (23:46)
So there's nothing new under the sun, as we know from Ecclesiastes. they have a fetish for violence, as we see
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (23:53)
That's a great point. That's a really good point.
Josh Hammer (23:56)
Yeah, and we see the upstake in political violence on the left as well when it comes to the Luigi Mangioni assassination of Brian Thompson, the Night Healthcare CEO, the assassination of my own friend Charlie Kirk, and various other atrocities. So there's a fetish for violence on the left that has literally been there since the since the origins of the contemporary left-right divide, the French Revolution itself. And I you know, I'm not sure it needs elaboration, but Islamists certainly share this penchant for violence. So there is a mutual love when it comes to violence, then you couple that with the mutual desire to subvert and overthrow the West and ultimately the shining beacon, the shining city on a hill, as Reagan referred to it, which is America, well, then you see how they can possibly make common costs too.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (24:37)
Are we exaggerating the threat on the right, the Tucker Carlson we we've done a lot of interviews now and I think everyone we've interviewed brought up his name. Is are we in effect making this into something bigger by constantly thinking about it or and talking about it and treating him as if he actually is a leader? Or and this is again when you t you talked about not trusting with bots and technology, I don't have the foggiest notion.
You know, who how many fans, quote unquote, he actually has.
Josh Hammer (25:12)
It's a good question. A very good question. I think I think the answer is yes and no. the yes that we are tending to over exaggerate is that at this present time right now, you know, I'm not I'm not exactly terrified, right? I mean I if you if you if you look at the current Republican Party elected official class, there are very, very few people who have anything close to Tucker like beliefs.
Really in general. I mean, when it comes not just to the Jewish people or Israel, but also when it comes to this overtly pro Russia, pro China, pro Nicholas Maduro. I essentially this anti American position, which by the way, is something that that I point out a lot as well, including in my CPAC speech from this past March, is I point out frequently that the Tuckers of the world, it's not just that he's anti Semitic, which he obviously is. He is viciously anti American. Viciously.
And that kind of gets back to my to my broader thesis, which is that these the fates of these two entities, Klal Yisrael (the Jewish people), and America, are linked. If you love one, you love the other. If you hate one, you hate the other. It actually makes a lot of sense when you unpack it. So anyway, getting back to your question. If you if you look at the current crop of elected officials who are actually wielding political power, no, look, there's Thomas Massey who just lost his primary race in Kentucky's fourth congressional district. There's Marjorie Taylor Green, who was essentially forced out of Congress after Donald Trump admirably and correctly turned on her. That happened just in January earlier this year. There's really no one else. And if you look if you look at the polling right now as well, the polling generally holds up on the right side of the aisle. When you when you look at self-identified conservatives, self-identified MAGA, self-identified Republican Party voters, support for Israel and the Jewish people has essentially not changed at all. I think it's like literally within the margin of error compared to where it was. 10, 15 years ago. So that's it's pretty stable. The flip side of that is that when you peel under the surface and start to look at the younger demographic, there actually are some reasons for concern. So for instance, here in Florida where I live, Byron Donald looks like he's going to win the gubernatorial primary in a cakewalk, but there is an unfortunate candidate by the name of James Fishback who is running for governor of Florida on essentially let's call it a Nick Fuentes Groiper light like platform where he has made hatred of Israel and anti-Semitic tropes and wink nudge nudges. He made that a recurring late motif of his campaign. And I saw one poll from I believe it was Florida Northern University, based in I think Jacksonville, Florida, from a admittedly it's a couple months old, but at the time it showed that in the youngest demographic slice, I think it was 18-35.
Fishback was absolutely dominating Byron Donald. Fishback had by far the most support, which is pretty concerning. Now, admittedly, I don't know, i it could be because of his stances on other issues, who knows? But there definitely are some other data points out there that show that even among younger Republicans, support for Israel, moral ambivalence, confusion between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs, potentially even Hamas, the polling is definitely a lot murkier than it than it is for Republicans over the age of let's call it.
think that demographic divide is downstream of a lot of other trends that are happening in society. For instance, the young younger generation are those who are being indoctrinated by the universities and education in general. So this problem is downstream of other problems. But that is what ultimately does give me concern for sure when it comes to what the political spectrum might look like. You know, twenty, twenty five years from now, but at this exact time, Tucker is not a particularly formidable threat.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (29:05)
With an eye on the future of Jews in America, are you more concerned by the rise in anti Semitism or are you more concerned by the diminishing of Christian commitment and biblical centrality in the culture?
Josh Hammer (29:24)
Well, I think the two essentially go hand in hand, right? I think that they go hand in hand. But if I had to choose one, it probably is the latter, because the latter is the more foundational societal trend. And the former, the rise of anti Semitism, I think could best be ameliorated, mitigated, or potentially even turned around, God willing, if the latter is actually fixed.
In fact, one thing that I've thought about for many years, Rabbi, is I thought about the following hypothetical. if I were a monarch, if I were a king and I could implement one decree in America tomorrow, what would it be? And my decree would be that I want everyone all Christians in church pews on Sundays. I you know, I want all Jews and Christians to be in their house of worship on the weekend. In other words, I think if America is going to be saved in the twenty first century.
I think that a that a new great awakening is essentially the surest way to do that. So that troubles me quite a bit. And the polling on this is actually interesting because if you if you look at the polling for the Zoomers, for Gen Z, the youngest generation, some of the polling does seem to indicate that they express a greater belief in God than millennials, with the generation right above them, my generation.
Then other polls show that they are attending church at an even less frequent rate. So there's very mixed data on this particular issue. I think it's also worth noting that a lot of my a lot of my best friends who happen to be both evangelicals and traditional Catholics, but a lot of my evangelical close friends tell me about problems that are going on even within younger evangelicals. And again, I think that these are the folks who are just getting indoctrinated by the same sources that most Americans are. They're getting indoctrinated.
By the media, by the universities, by all the various organs of misinformation and the vectors of moral confusion that are sowing discord at a broader scale. So yes, it's very, very concerning, but to get back to your question, if I had to choose one that is more concerning, I think the more fundamental problem is that there is there is declining Christian belief. And above all, Rabbi, there is declining adherence.
To the Christianity of the American Founding. So there was a wonderful recent essay by Eric Cohen and Jonathan Silver of Tikva. I published at a Mosaic magazine. I believe it was entitled America's Hebraic Awakening. I'm quoting it in my current book manuscript. It's a wonderful, wonderful essay. And they have the phrase Hebraic Christianity, which they use to refer to the Christianity of the American Founding. And there's just there's so much to that. We could we could talk for literal hours.
About the way exactly that that Torah, the story of the Exodus, all all these stories just so deeply inspired, everyone from the literal Voyagers on the Mayflower all the way to the founding and well beyond. I mean, Abraham Lincoln, of course, famously refers to Americans as an almost chosen people. But this notion of anchoring one's Christianity, typically Prozentism, although it could be Catholicism, but this notion of anchoring one's Christianity to the lessons and the teachings oftheOld Testament, of the Hebrew Bible, it's much less common these days. And sometimes when it is sometimes even when it is believed and when it is invoked, when it is taught, it's actually ridiculed by others. So that's a problem that I can see. it's a battle happening within Christianity. It's one of the many reasons why I miss every day my friend Charlie Kirk with probably the
The single leading proponent of his entire generation for what we might refer to as this very Hebraic Christianity.
Susan Lapin (33:03)
Yeah. So one of the other things, cause we've always spoken about that American Christianity was extremely unique. Catholics and Protestants and different sects of each of those religions murdered each other in Europe. There were religious wars all over the place. And actually one of the miracles, one of the blessings of America is there was a dis somehow an ability to live together. You can keep your theology, you don't have to take my theology, we can live together.
And particularly on the Catholic side, I'm actually seeing priests and others who are now not only speaking hatred for Jews, but speaking hatred for Protestants. In other words, I feel like there's this almost this push from some wings to turn America into Europe, which is was not a good success. I mean, we really like America.
Josh Hammer (34:01)
Yeah,look, so this has been happening to an extent for years, to an extent. I mean, so I think back to when I was in law school. So when I was in law school at the at the University of Chicago, I was chairman of my conservative debating society at the time. And I, you know, there were Jews, but the society was mostly conservative Catholics, conservative Protestants. And I say that because I think back to some of these debates that were had, some of these kind of cheeky, snarky debates. It was all the times Protestants and Catholics. Just really ribbing one another. But it wasn't done with malice or animus, but it was trying to you know, stick the knife in, twist a little bit, don't twist it too much. So this tension's been happening for a while. I agree with you that it is on the up and up, that it is becoming increasingly visible and an increasingly prominent part of our common debates. And sometimes the Jews find themselves kind of used as a cudgel that is wielded in these debates, actually. Because h historically, not always, but historically, of course, it was evangelical Protestantism that placed a stronger emphasis on the Hebrew Bible. That was that was traditionally the more aggressive part of the Christian Zionist movement, although not exclusively. There are there are pl any number of Catholics who've been part of that as well, but I'm talking in in broad stripes here. So the Jews find themselves sometimes in the in this very awkward kind of being wielded and tossed around like a hacky sack in these internecine Christianity debates between Protestantism and Catholicism. Now, look, America has always been a Protestant majority or at least plurality country. I think nowadays it's actually plurality, it's no longer a majority, which I view as an a as an unfortunate thing for whatever it's worth. There is atrend, I don't really have data on how widespread it is off the tip of my tongue. There is a younger trend among some younger conservatives
To convert to Catholicism. This is definitely happen something that's happening within Protestant circles. But I actually just read a very interesting essay from my friend Tyman Klein, who's a who is a very well spoken evangelical Christian. Tyman notes, according to what to the data that he's seen, that there's actually more conversions the other way from Catholicism to evangelical Protestantism. So I don't really know which way what to make of that. Anecdotally, it seems to me that I've had a number of younger Protestant friends or agnostic friends who have converted to Catholicism.
And that's actually its own debate, right? There's a debate within American Catholicism as to what the relationship is or ought to be with the Jewish people and the state of Israel. There are all sorts of all sorts of provocateurs who per purport to speak in the name of the church, but a lot of these folks happen to be converts, whatever it's worth. people like Candace Owens, people like Carrie Prejean Boller, who say that Catholicism says this when i i it it actually doesn't. If you if you go back and you look at what Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict.
Course, Vatican II. What these doctrines have said is they actually affirm the legitimacy of the Abrahamic covenant, which is fascinating. So the entire notion of theological supersessionism, which pre-Vatican II was a core claim of Catholicism for essentially two millennia, that's actually been affirmatively rejected. It's been affirmally rejected by the Catholic Church to their great credit, I think, in response just to just to the geopolitical reality that that Israel exists. The people exists.
The state exists. So to their great credit, they've shown humility at a at a doctrinal level in adjusting their position when it comes to the nature of the Abrahamic, of the Abrahamic covenant. So something is actually happening within Catholicism. But yes, there are these increasingly robust Protestant Catholic cat Catholic debates, which puts us Jews in a somewhat awkward position. my only my only request, frankly, would be that we are not tossed around like a hacky sack as much as sometimes it seems like we are.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (37:46)
Suppose a man comes to you and says, Josh, I I've got young grandchildren and I just can't get clear in my mind whether their future is in America or whether their future is in Israel. What are the things I could be doing? What should I do to make sure that they will have a future here in the United States of America?
Josh Hammer (38:14)
So I presume based on the question that we're talking here about American Jews. So
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (38:18)
Yes.
Josh Hammer (38:20)
it's a fabulous question. So what I argue in my book, so my favorite chapter in the book Israel and civilization is the penultimate chapter, the second to last chapter. And it's titled The Maccabean Imperative. And the story of the Maccabees, the story of Hanukkah, is very near and dear to my heart. My Hebrew name is actually Yhoshua binyameen Maccabees, Maccabi, because
Judah the Hammer was Judah the Maccabees was nicknamed Judah the Hammer. So at the time of my bar mitzvah, I was given the Hebrew name Yehoshua Binyamin Maccabi. So who were the Maccabees? I you know, without giving a you know full Devar Torah (teaching). In short, you know, they were the defenders of the faith. They were the defenders of traditional temple Judaism.
against the assimilationists, against the those who were trying to assimilate into Hellenistic Syrian Greek culture, the ones who were trying to resanctify the Beethamidash, the temple for the set the sacrifices and so forth. So what is being a modern Maccabee entail? Well it entails not assimilating and it entails actually keeping Torah and keeping mitzvo to the absolute best of your abilities.
So I get asked this question frequently, which is what can I best do in my own capacity to fight back against anti-Semitism? And the answer that I typically give is you really should actually do mitzvot (commandments). You should act you should actually follow the Torah's commandments. And in doing so, and only in doing so, can we actually hope to be a light unto the nations? That is our only chance of actually failing.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (39:59)
know, fight antisemitism with more Semitism.
Josh Hammer (40:02)
Yes, exactly. And listen, you could do that in your in your in in in your own way, whether it's wearing a kippah or seat seed publicly, whether it's wearing a Magan David, a star a star of David necklace, whatever floats your boat. But you know,put that mezuza, put that mezzozod up on your front door, get a big one. I mean, make it stand out. Do not do not shy away. I actually was reading I was re I was reading a very fascinating Dvar Torah actually a couple of weeks ago from Rabbi Eli Mansour.
Was a Syrian Sephardic rabbi based in Brooklyn, if not mistaken. And he was he was commenting on Parsha Eikev. And towards the end of Parsha Eikev is the second paragraph of the Shema, the famous prayer that we recite twice every day as Jews. And there is a reference there to both Tefilin and and and Mezuzot. the commandment to put on wrap Tefilin, phylacteries, and then put the mezuzah on your door.
And Rashi, the commentator, asks, or he says, that the reason for this is so that you do not forget the mitzvot when you return from Gulut from exile and get back to the land of Israel, which is a rather astonishing thing to contemplate because what Rashi seems to be saying at first blush is that the mitzvot in exile are optional or quasi-optional, that we're actually only doing it so we don't forget it when we return to the lands. How can how can this be? And a much later commentator by the name of
If I'm not forgetting, I believe is Rav Anshil Weiss, if I'm not mistaken his name. He solves this Rashi riddle, let's call it that, by essentially saying that what Rashi is saying is that when you don't do the public face mitzvot tefillin, Mezuzot, tzitzit (phylacteries) et cetera, when you don't do that, then the Gentiles, the nations of the world, will find a way to remind you for you. The most infamous example of this, of course, is the Yellow Star during Nazi Germany.
So the answer to this is not to let the other nation of the world define us for us. The answer is to define ourselves for ourselves. And ultimately that means following mitzvot, following Torah, and that is how I believe that we can best defeat anti-Semitism and ultimately trying to make America a great place to be for the children of Israel and for Christians and frankly for everyone in this twenty first century.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (42:23)
Go ahead. No. Josh, I was interested whether you have felt any kind of abrasiveness from the professional worlds in which you move so easily to your religious rather than merely Jewish.
Josh Hammer (42:47)
not really to be honest with you. listen, I mean it i it obviously is a lifestyle difference. I mean logging off fully for twenty-five hours every week. I mean taking off also for the holidays as well. So it definitely is a lifestyle. And look, sometimes that that ha that has required some additional things from me. So for instance, you know, if there is a week where there is a Yom Tova holiday starting Wednesday night, then there's two days in the diaspora, then Shabbat, so you're off three days in a row.
I mean, that clearly requires some foreplanning. For instance, I might need to record a show or two in advance. I might need to write a column in advance. I need to make sure that I'm giving enough people heads up that I will that I that I will be offline, et cetera. But other than that, not really to be honest with you. I think I think there's been strong understanding and respect, frankly, in at least in all my circles.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (43:38)
And do you think that the growth of secularism in America since the early nineteen sixties and so it's been decades of a relentless push in the direction of secularism, marginalizing Judeo Christian faith in politics, in entertainment, in the culture in general. Is anti Semitism an inevitable reaction to secularism based on something you said earlier, which is that the existence of Jews, the existence that we are here with our faith and our practice and our customs, is the surest validation of God's existence. If I'm somebody who wants to extirpate God and faith from American society, then isn't my anti Semitic position almost inevitable?
Josh Hammer (44:47)
Yes.
It is inevitable and it's it it's actually highly logical. Again, this this goes back at least to my telling the story. I mean, Marx explicitly seeks to overthrow Western capitalism and Western Christendom, which he essentially conflates with one another. And it's logical and inevitable that he started years prior to the Communist Manifesto with his treatise on the Jewish question. It makes a lot of sense. And by the way.
This is one of the reasons why the globalists like the United Nations are absolutely obsessed with the state of Israel. Because their goal is to, they're globalists. What's their goal? Again, getting us back to John Lenz and Magislaw and their goal is to eradicate the nation state. Their goal is to eradicate borders. That's the George Sordos UN goal. And that's really not hyperbole. That actually really is, I earnestly believe, their goal. So why wouldn't you start with the original nation state?
You know, Israel in biblical times, when Saul and David and Solomon unite the tribes into the United Kingdom based in Jerusalem, that that's really the first example of families and tribes uniting into a coherent, border defined nation state. what were the borders? Well the borders were very clear actually. They're they were given by God repeatedly all through throughout the Torah.
And that was in contrast to the geopolitical analogue of empire, which at the time was pervasive in antiquity. That was the Greeks, the Romans, perhaps most famously, and various others. So if your goal in modern times is to eradicate the nation state, well, why wouldn't you start with the original nation state? If your goal is to homogenize the masses and to subjugate all ways of particularist thinking. Why wouldn't you start with the ultimate quintessential particular people, the Jewish people? So it's all logical, Rabbi. It all makes a lot of sense. That doesn't make it any less evil, but to their ever so mild and begrudging credit, it's at least logical.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (46:52)
Yeah,that's a great point. Yes, it is logical. Yeah. So what is your message? What is Josh Hammer, the author of this terrific book and another one coming up? What is your message to Jews that you know and I know who are saying
Is our time in America coming to an end just as it did eventually in Spain and just as it did in in Italy and just as it did in in in every almost every country we've ever lived? is it coming to an end?
Josh Hammer (47:32)
So listen, I'm not gonna sit here and confidently assert the answer one way or the other, because I don't know. I just don't know. Obviously, Hashem has it all thought through, God has it all thought through, and that ultimately brings me some comfort. What I what I do know is that I think it is dramatic hyperbole to say that all is lost at this stage. That that that that strikes me as dramatically overstating it as a bit of
A bit of Jewish pessimism that is that is not incorrectly gleaned from millennia of Jewish history, but I think is at least highly premature in this current context. As we as we as we're discussing, the trends on the right side of the aisle are not as dire at this exact time as I think some people make them out to be. It is absolutely still salvageable. The left, admittedly, I do think is a lost cause at this point when it comes not just to Israel, but also to the
To the Jewish people, and that that brings me great concern because we're a two-part system and the left will inevitably be back in power, whether it's 2028, 2032, or beyond. But there is still a wonderful fight to be had here in America. And crucially, kind of to kind of tie this all into our broader conversation, the fight for the Jewish people in America is a fight for America. They are one in the same fight. It is the exact same fight. You know, I read this wonderful recent book actually, it came out 2018, but I put it for the first time recently, by Professor Samuel Goldman, who wrote a wonderful book on Christian Zionism. And one of the characters from the founding era that he writes a lot about is a man by the name of Elias Bodineau. And he was the founder of the American Bible Society. He actually was briefly president of the Continental Congress during the Revolutionary War. And Elias Bodineau felt that America Had been providentially called together as a nation, the colonies uniting, much like David united the tribes of Israel in millennia prior to that, Elias Bono felt that America was coming into existence as a nation for the purpose, as a vehicle to bring the children of Israel back home to the land, which is also, by the way, a recurring theme of many 17th century era Puritan sermons given in Boston and throughout Massachusetts. So this this has been a core question.
Core theme of American history. I think the question is: is there any appetite, is there any desire, is there any intellectual curiosity, any inkling within American Christian circles today to try to recover some of that broader spirit? And that means predominantly the evangelical church, but whoever wants to, it's our shared inheritance. This is our shared American inheritance as Jews, Protestants, and Catholics. And I think if I I think that the question, the answer the answer to that question, Rabbi.
I think will ultimately go a long way towards solving this this looming question as to the future of Jewish life in America.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (50:37)
Wow. Thank you. Josh, is there anything else that we haven't raised that you think needs expression, particularly my goodness, just ignore that. is there anything else that that you would raise that we haven't addressed at propos of this basic question of whether or not Jews have to put their shoulder to the wheel and join in the fight? To rescue and preserve and protect or whether it's time to flee.
Josh Hammer(51:13)
Pretty satisfied. I think that we covered all that I hope to cover. I mean, obviously feel free to continue if you would like to. I'm not in a time pressing situation here, but I think we're good.
Susan Lapin (51:22)
I have one more question because J D Vance and we've asked some people and my own well, my personal view, I would never I would not call him an anti Semite. I think that is way hyperbole and but I do think he is naive and unsophisticated in understanding America, really. the history of religion in America and the importance. Would you be worried if he was the Republican nominee?
Josh Hammer (51:51)
So I've known JD Vance for seven years, I think. I think I think I think we first met in 2016. I've drank beers with JD Vance. I I know him on a personal level. we used to be in very frequent touch, less so these days for obvious reasons. here's what I will say: I will say that the JD Vance that I see sometimes, not always, but sometimes these days, is barely recognizable from the JD Vance that I got to know and considered a friend. Because
At times he seems to be so deep in the weeds of the online discourse. I think he has a bit of an internet problem. I think that J.D. Vance is a little too online, as as the kids say. In fact, in the new Maggie Haberman Jonathan Swan book Regime Change, there's an anecdote where after Charlie Kirk's horrific assassination, Susie Wiles, the White House Chief of Staff, actually apparently said to JD Vance, get off the internet, you're spending all the night looking at these conspiracies, just get off the internet. So I think that JD has a bit of an online conspiracist, maybe even borderline radic radicalization
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (52:55)
Very interesting.
Josh Hammer (52:57)
problem. And even more to the point, I think that his inability to fully distance from Tucker Carlson, who is the at this point, I think is the most dangerous anti-Semite in American history. I think he actually dwarfs Father Coughlin, actually. I think that is problematic. I think it is very problematic. And I think that Jews are correct to be concerned about that.
However, I do not think that J.D. Vance is personally anti-Semitic. I have seen zero evidence for this. There's actually a lot of evidence on the contrary, but he is potentially showing himself cynical and ambitious enough to not go sufficiently in the condemnatory direction of those individuals so as to potentially advance his ambitions. And that is definitely a source of potential concern. So I guess we'll see. I don't really know how it will shape out there, but if nothing else, Su Susan, he definitely should he definitely should distance from Tucker. I think that'll be a very prudent first step for him to make.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (53:57)
Is there a parallel in how Tucker Carlson changed from the Fox commentator we all knew and watched with delight and enthusiasm into the strange creature that is now become any understanding in what occasioned this extraordinary change where there seems to be now an almost insane single minded focus on Israel?
Josh Hammer (54:25)
So I have thoughts and possible theories. I don't have a smoking gun or anything or anything like that. I think Tucker has some likely very shady connections to certain Muslim countries, Muslim donors, Muslim entities. For instance, there was an article that came out in the Washington Examiner, I think it was like a year and a half ago at this point, that flagged this mom and pop PR shop.
In the DC suburbs of Northern Virginia called Lumen8 Advisors. I presume that no one's heard of this company. It's a literally a two-person company. Lumen8 Advisors, at the time of this article, was making a lot of money. I think they had a an almost $200,000 a month FARA contract. They were registered foreign agents for Qatar. And on their FARA, which is the Foreign Agent Registration Act, on their on their paperwork, this firm.
Women and Aid Advisors listed exactly one entity that they were serving the embassy of Qatar for, and it was the Tucker Carlson show. In other words, when Tucker hosted the Emir of Qatar on his show, which is that he's actually he's not he's done that now numerous times, but the first time he did it, that was a literally bought and paid for by a foreign registered agent interview. I think that's a very important detail that a lot of folks look. So you see that that you look at Tucker.
Who says Qatar is a better place for Christians in Israel? He says that Sharia law is actually better than American constitutional. Yeah, he really said he actually really says that Sharia law is better than the US Constitution. So you look at this and a broader picture starts to emerge of a guy who is just falling into foreign influence. And there's a there's also a Russia component to this. you know, Vladimir Putin's Rasputin.
Type talking head is a guy by the name of Alexander Dugan, who is kind of his
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (56:14)
Yes.
Josh Hammer (56:15)
his intellectual philosopher in chief there in Moscow. Well, Dugan has real has real sway in certain circles, like Tucker Carlson, like Candace Owens. I don't really know why, they find it appealing. But it's a lot of recycled Soviet-era Kremlin talking points. A lot of emphasis on America must be made to share power with other powers. So you combine a lot of this.
Russia Kremlin info operation with this clear Qatari Muslim influence operation as well. And you start to see a picture emerge of Tucker. I think he's also just I think he's probably also just a genuine anti-Semite, to be honest with you. I think that Tucker likely hit his hands for a long time. I heard this one anecdote where Tucker apparently came back from an unfortunate foreign policy TV hit that he had done at CNN back in the Bush era, four five.
Apparently, my friend who was in the room said that Tucker stormed into this lunchroom and said, the Jews got me. They got me. And the people were like, What did he just say? So I think that Tucker likely is it very much is kind of this old school, stereotypical wasp country club anti- semite, the this kind of caricature of of 1950s America. And I think he probably hid his hand as well. So I think that's probably what's going on here over.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (57:37)
Josh, talking to you is wonderful and reading your books is wonderful. You're so sane and so insightful. it's a rare combination and it's a privilege to be your friend and know you.
Josh Hammer (57:51)
it's an honor that we that we become friends, Rabbi, and I hope that friendship continues. I look forward to sharing a meal or drink in person soon, God willing.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (57:58)
Amen to that. Thanks for being with us.
Josh Hammer (57:59)
Thank you.
