TRANSCRIPT
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The Rabbi Daniel Lapin Podcast
Episode: Should Jews Leave America? | Batya Ungar-Sargon Says Stay and Fight
Date: 10/16/2026 Length: 00:50:20
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (00:01)
Welcome, Happy Warriors. And you know, it's not often that you find us lost for words. You know, we're seldom lost for words. And it's also seldom that we're starstruck. But today we are a little bit starstruck. We're a little bit in awe of our guest today, and that might possibly hinder our ordinary verbosity. So
I hope you'll all understand and you'll join me in welcoming Batya Ungar-Sargon, who if you don't already recognize her, then you have been locked off the internet for the last year or more for sure. Thanks so much for being with us. And you really an incredibly gracious guest, you really are, because we had some technical snarl ups that you would have had every right to be irritable about.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (00:55)
my gosh, I'm so honored to be here and just so glad and privileged to have this conversation with you. We met at CPAC a couple years ago, and I felt such a kinship for your project and for the love you have for this country and for our Christian brothers and sisters and for, you know, not enough Jews understand the support for our people in the Christian community. And I consider that to be.
One of the most important things I was trying to convey with my new book. And you both are fellow travelers on that mission. So I'm very honored to be here.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (01:33)
the book you're referring to is The Jews and the Left. And Batya perhaps in just a sentence or to just give the thesis of the book. I haven't read it yet, but I can assure you we're going to
Batya Ungar-Sargon (01:48)
So, I wrote this book because the question that I get asked the most when I travel from Christians and conservatives and Republicans is I'm sure the same question you guys get asked, which is why are the Jews Democrats when we love the Jews and the Democrats hate them? And
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (02:04)
Yes.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (02:04)
I wanted to write a book that answered that question, actually both parts of those questions, why Jews became Democrats in America, and then why the left turned on them. And in the research for the book, I uncovered.
The first 300 years of American Jewish history before Jews became Democrats, in which they were seen as founding partners in the creation of this great nation. From the minute they stepped foot on American soil in 1654, they saw this as the promised land. And the Founding Fathers really saw them as total heritage Americans, partners in this endeavor.
They saw Jews as the living, breathing embodiment of the source material for the civilization that they were building here, which of course was the Torah, because they felt that they were building something utterly unique, which they were, a society based on the idea that our rights are not the gift of a government, but are a gift from God. And they thought that that idea, that revolutionary idea was in the Torah.
And when they met Jews and when they saw Jews here, they saw us as the protectors of that civilization, that concept, that text. We were the people of the book. And that influenced how Americans across the board saw and treated Jews in America. We were never oppressed here, ever. And it's a little bit of a betrayal that so many American Jews join the left.
And started to view our history in this revisionist way as if we were an oppressed minority here in a country that never treated us that way. In fact, the opposite, that always treated us as a very cherished part of what it means to be an American. And this was by and large the result of Christians. American Christians, uniquely in the history of humanity, organized their religion around the protection of Jews.
And the admiration of Jews rather than the persecution of Jews. And this is a story that has been utterly erased from history. And I wanted to reclaim that in my book on our two hundred and fiftieth birthday.
Susan Lapin (04:16)
Well, we appreciate that. And as you say, it's things that we have also pulled our hair out about.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (04:21)
Ha ha ha.
Susan Lapin (04:23)
I wanna play devil's advocate though, for anyone listening who says, Well, wait a second, weren't there quotas in the universities and weren't there Jews excluded from medical school and et cetera, et cetera. In other words so when you say there was no discrimination, leave aside no oppression. Leave aside at the founding of the country and of course for at the beginning of the country, the different colonies, some of the colonies did have religious tests for being able to be elected to office. But those went away. And as you say, I mean, we agree with you, but I would like to be devil's advocate and say, well, what about those quotas? And what if you know, that more in the nineteen hundreds.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (04:59)
Yeah, definitely.
So of course there was anti-Semitism here. you know, there's ethnic hatred between groups everywhere in the world. The thing that takes something from being just, you know, ethnic hatred, which is part of the human condition unfortunately, and changes it into oppression is whether the state endorses one side or the other, whether the state puts its finger on the scales and says we're gonna support the pogroms against the Jews.
We're gonna enact laws against the Jews. you're right, there were religious, religious tests to whether you could have public office in America. But the tests against Jews went away very, very quickly. In fact, they went away, the tests precluding Jews from holding office went away before the tests precluding Catholics and Mormons. So for a long time in American history, it was harder to be a Catholic or a Mormon than it was to be a Jew.
There were outbreaks of anti-Semitism. You had the Leo Frank lynching, you had the Klan, you had Henry Ford, an unrepentant anti-Semite, who Hitler used to call his friend Heinrich Ford. That's how much he loved him. but each of these instances was met by a massive resistance from the American population at large, who were just disgusted by the idea.
That their Jewish neighbors would be treated as less than. And I go through in the book each of those examples and how the love that Americans had for Jews was like an antibody against this hate and destroyed it very quickly. The quotas were there. Yes, at some point, the entering there was a year in late 1920s.
When the entering class of Harvard was 20% Jewish. Okay. Jews
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (06:49)
Well.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (06:49)
were about one or two percent of the population. Okay. So they freaked out and they put on quotas. Those are bad. Okay. Those were bad. So all the Jews had to leave Harvard. They couldn't go to the Ivies. So instead they like took over all of the state schools and made them incredible. You know, they opened their own firms and became unbelievably wealthy. They opened their own hospitals and their own doctors thrived. So again, yeah, the elites, elite.
Elite anti-Semitism has always been there. you know, in the Gilded Age, you had a bunch of robber barons coming up and making a ton of money and then wanting entree into elite society, and the elites didn't want them. And so there was an outbreak of anti-Semitism there from the elites, trying to keep out people trying to come up, not all of whom were Jewish, by the way. of course, there is anti-Semitism, but in America it is always the exception that proved the rule.
And to me, the fact that Jews had to go to like the second best university because the univers the best university, you know, developed an anti-Semitism. By the way, they still allowed 4%, you know, to be Jews, right? I'm not defending quotas. They're bad, you know? I'm just saying, like, compared to what every other Jew on the face of the planet was facing in that moment, it's laughable, I think, to consider that to be like oppression. But that is kind of like liberal Jews on the left.
Who are inculcated in leftist values, who have come to see oppression as currency, the way that it is on the in fact, the only currency, they always throw this in my face. Like there's, I know you're not doing this, but there's, well, they kept us out of Harvard. No, they kept you out of Harvard. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know what they were
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (08:28)
Yeah.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (08:30)
doing to your to your to your cousins when they were keeping you out of Harvard? My God, like
Susan Lapin (08:35)
Yeah, get some perspective here. So let's go to the next accusation. And you know, most of our most of the people watching this are are Christians. And so what concerns us isn't actually so much them as the next generation, because
Batya Ungar-Sargon (08:52)
Mm.
Susan Lapin (08:53)
They're the kids who are in college today, the people who are in their 20s, early 30s today are hearing lots of things. And a phrase that I actually have not heard so much recently because almost because it's become accepted without the phrase, you used to hear, well, dual loyalty. American
Batya Ungar-Sargon (09:09)
Mm.
Susan Lapin (09:10)
Jews have a dual loyalty to America and Israel. So can you address that, please?
Batya Ungar-Sargon (09:15)
It's so ridiculous. Like, do they think that Catholics have a dual loyalty to the Vatican? It's just the most ridiculous thing I I've ever heard. We all have many identities that are very dear to us. You know, Jews do feel a deep connection to other Jews worldwide. That is 100% true. And, you know, that is the religion of most Jews. On the left, you'll hear people like, you know, Zoran Mamdani or Abdul El-Sayed saying, you know, I revere the Jewish faith. I just have a problem with Israel. Well
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (09:44)
And Jews.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (09:44)
I know, right? But you know, Zionism is what passes for faith amongst most of the world's Jews. It's sad, but they are not people of faith. Most Jews are not religious. Most Jews, certainly in America, I think also in Israel, don't believe in God. They just it's sad, they don't. What they do have is a deep connection to other Jews and to the land of Israel, to their ancestral homeland. that is their faith. And to suggest that an American citizen should have to apologize for an article of faith is disgusting.
And it is anti American. I mean, it's just despicable.
Susan Lapin (10:17)
Well, did you want to say something? Go ahead, but you write you're in the middle of something, I'll come back. 'Cause I just one of the things that's happened in France since October eighth, and I say October eighth versus October 7th because the response and the hatred of Jews that came out around the world was before Israel made any reaction to the massacre that took place in Israel on October 7th. So the whole idea that it's because of the response is just patently false. But since that day, since October 7th or October 8th, 6,500 Jews have left France. And for a large part, France is replacing its Jewish population with its Muslim population. Germany, Sweden Muslims are coming all over the place.
I see a huge difference between Judaism and is and Catholicism and Protestantism and any variation of Protestantism and even Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam. So when you say no American should have to apologize for their religious faith, I
Batya Ungar-Sargon (11:22)
Mm-hmm.
Susan Lapin (11:23)
kinda say, Well, wait a second, I think we're running into a problem because I think that Islam is in a different category. Would you agree?
Batya Ungar-Sargon (11:32)
I don't think that we should be naturalizing people who don't believe in democracy, like who don't share our values. That you will not find an American Jew. I mean, maybe like some Neturei Karta, or you know, or like some Satmer, like will yeah, I wish we were living. But I think
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (11:46)
No, it's a handful.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (11:48)
it's a handful. I mean, the vast majority, you know, I we actually we have very close friends who are like very religious Chabad Shlihim
And even they will admit, like, no, you we want to live under a democracy. You know what I mean? Like, and we'll push them. what about in Israel? Do you think Israel should be in, you know, f should the law in Israel follow the halakha? And if you push them, they'll, you know, no, of course not. You know what I mean? It's like that every nearly every American Jew is deeply committed to the concept of democracy and a liberal democracy at that, the vision of the founding fathers.
I think a lot of Muslims don't believe in that. And why are we naturalizing people who don't agree with the founding vision of this nation? So I think but but I will say I do know Muslims who are, you know, less, you know, f extreme, maybe less religious. Maybe they're kind of more like reform Muslims, you know, who have a deep connection to democracy, who don't want to see Sharia law instituted. I don't think it's impossible to be a Muslim.
And to be a good citizen and to believe in democracy. But I do think it's fair to say like that that should be a prerequisite for becoming part of our nation. I think America has been very good at that. And I live in a neighborhood that has a lot of Muslims in it. I never feel uncomfortable. I never feel like these people are trying to take over or trying to like destroy my way of life or have a problem with me or my neighbors. I do think Europe is lost. I think that they have naturalized a lot of people.
Who fundamentally do not believe in the whole point of a liberal democracy. And I they committed suicide. And I feel sorry for them, but it's - if you walk down the streets and you feel it. It's just horrific. It's very shocking. And so I do think, but I it's kind of part of the point of my book is that America is utterly unique and exceptional. It's like there's something in the soil that rejects Jew hatred.
And it's been that way since the first Jew who stepped foot on American soil in 1654. And I think it's still that way today. I think it has a moderating effect even on religious Muslims who come here, by and large, kind of want to be middle class, want to be part of the American dream. That's just been my experience. The Muslims who are able to emigrate here tend to be upper middle class, they tend to have more means than the ones who emigrate to Europe.
So I do think that there's like a socioeconomic factor here, a political factor here. yeah, but the dual loyalties against Jews is just it's just so ridiculous. Like I don't know, you know, obviously we all want Israel to thrive, but like the idea that Jews are somehow less critical of Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu than like your average ? is ridiculous. Like it just doesn't you can have like a deep love of a country.
And that ha comes in in no way in conflict with saying like obviously our first our first priority has to be ensuring the survival of the United States.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (14:54)
Batya, when you speak about the DNA of America rejecting Jew hatred, does that does that extend to Israel hatred as well? I'm interested in in how and if you distinguish between Israel hatred and Jew hatred. And I'm thinking in terms perhaps of some of the words of our vice president in the not too distant past, where he certainly does not sound friendly at all towards Israel and many, many other people as well. but I I doubt whether he would exhibit any animosity towards me, for instance.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (15:45)
There is a faction on the far right that has started to make me feel like I have to prove that I'm not Israel first. And honestly screw them. Okay. That because that to me is they don't think they're anti-Semitic. They're specifically saying we don't have a problem with Jews. But if you are making me feel like I have to justify myself on the grounds of my Jewishness, screw you.
Like that is to me, I wouldn't call it anti-Semitism because it doesn't stem from bigotry, but it is in effect to make Jews feel uncomfortable. And I think that's disgusting. Lawrence Jones said on Fox News the other day, critical of the vice president's comments on Joe Rogan. He said, the vice president said, I'm a moderate on Israel. And Lawrence Jones said, I'm sorry, Mr. Vice President, that is not the Republican position on Israel. We're not moderates on Israel, you know, like
No, that l leave that for the Democrats who are fighting it out with the DSA, you know? Like, no. And so I think so to your to answer question, there is rising anti-Israel sentiment. Certainly has taken over the left. The left has utterly turned on Israel and in a way that
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (16:59)
Yeah, unashamedly.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (17:00)
completely unashamedly, they're proud of it. And they want Jews to feel uncomfortable if they are Zionists. Like f for a Jew to enter the left, they have to get on their knees and you know, beg for acceptance by denouncing their own people. It's humiliating. And no American should ever be on their knees ever. But on the right, I would say the vast majority, like 80% of Republicans, are still very pro-Israel and very supportive of Israel. You have an isolationist wing that is not so Happy with Israel, doesn't see why it should be an ally. It's a small minority. And then you have like you know a 10% that's kind of waffling between the middle a lot of young people very confused. you also have young people on the right who they don't really have a problem with Israel. They're just kind of like in an isolationist s mindset where why are we giving money to anyone when I can't afford to buy a home? Totally legitimate point of view. It's not a my view, but it is a legitimate point of view that's not anti-Semitic.
So I think that there's like just a real difference, even in how people who are not fans of Israel on the left and on the right sound and talk and what's in their hearts. But Israel has become a completely partisan issue. The good news is that Republicans are standing fast and standing by their Jewish allies. And it's really remarkable to see there's a lot of pressure because a lot of the content creators who create content online, their content is getting
Boosted by billion two billion Muslims who are who love anti-Semitic, anti-Israel content, you know? And but it you can some people, like the vice president, I believe, mistake this online Muslim engagement for American public opinion. And that creates this pressure, like, my gosh, millions and millions of Americans hate Israel. Like we have to we have to engage with them. But it's nonsense because on the right, polling shows again and again and again.
Republicans are steadfast. In fact, they're more pro-Israel now than they were before October 7th. So all of the fallout is happening on the left. And that is something that the American right should be very, very proud of. There on my show on News Nation, I've had Republican senators, congressmen, members of the cabinet, influencers, journalists come out and just in no uncertain terms denounce Tucker Carlson and just say there's just absolutely no room for this in the party.
There's one exception, of course, who you mentioned, the vice president of the United States, who seems to me to be betting on the seediest corners of the online right. And I think that's a big mistake, and I think the fact that it's a mistake will be revealed very soon.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (19:42)
And you would say, I think, that in the same way that the Vice President is mistaking a vast Moslem response on the internet for American citizens, that might also explain the numbers of people like Tucker Carlson or Nick Fuentes or Candace Owens, who are sort of some among the most conspicuous of the Jew hate corner of the internet.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (20:06)
Yeah, you don't see anybody except content creators, influencers, people who make money off of engagement, going down this anti-Semitic road on the right. They're the only ones doing it because they're making money doing it. so and it's you know, they they're always trying to say MAGA split over this, MAGA split over that. There's never a split. Like MAGA is behind the president, 85%, 90%. It the split is between the president and his base on the one hand. And then these far right, they're not even right wing anymore. As soon as they become anti-Zionists, they become kind of leftist. Like you see Tucker Carlson now, he's going wants to talk to the young Turks. He wants to talk to the anti-Zionists. He doesn't want to talk to people on the right. So it's really, you know, anti-Zionism is truly a gateway drug to the left. It's a it's a very cleansing, you know, this Jew hatred is very cleansing because it's kind of almost like a sieve through which
You know, the Republicans are getting rid of all of the by the way, the same people who hate Israel and hate the Jews hate America. It's very it really goes hand in hand.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (21:13)
Yeah, it really does. Were you gonna say something?
Susan Lapin (21:16)
I was just gonna say because you..
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (21:18)
aren't you pleased she's on our side?
Susan Lapin (21:19)
If you all you were you kind of in some ways using terms anti-Zionism and anti-Jewish and almost interchangeably, and I think they have become interchangeable in the last two or three years. I don't think they were before that. because I think it has become it was a safe way. I don't think a JD Vance to use his name can get up and say, I ha I think Jewish Americans are traitors. I don't think we should give full rights to Jewish Americans. That would be - I don't think and I
Batya Ungar-Sargon (21:54)
Right.
Susan Lapin (21:55)
I don't even think that I would call him anti Semitic. I think he's not wise. I think he's making some very unwise decisions. I think he's naive. I don't think he actually, you know.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (22:00)
Totally. Totally. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah. Yeah.
Susan Lapin (22:05)
So but he is fine getting up and saying, well, AIPAC, I mean a lobbying group that supports Israel. And I my guess is or I would bet he doesn't even understand why as a Jew I'm feeling uncomfortable with that. Because and partially why? Because I have You know, I know people who've had Jewish stars yanked off their necks in the train and the subway in New York. And you know, we we've seen people outside a synagogue, you know, protesting. And we know that Jews have been punished who are Jewish, period. You know, when no one knows anything about their what, you know,
Batya Ungar-Sargon (22:42)
Right.
Susan Lapin (22:42)
whether they are Zionists or not. So I feel like you used it in a way that is reflective of the fact that curtain has disappeared between anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist, but Can you speak to that a little?
Batya Ungar-Sargon (22:55)
It's such an important question. in general, I think we should have the most capacious view of like how far someone can go before we call them a bigot, just because fact is we are in a nation with a lot of people who disagree with us. And it's very important that we remember that more unites us and divides us as Americans. And, you know, political debate is the only alternative to political violence. And so it's very important to me to have the biggest of people I'm willing to debate with, which is very hard because sometimes people say, like to me, after like anybody who believed the like Israel taught dogs how to rape Palestinian prison prisoners, I never wanted to talk to somebody, like a specifically one person who would like come on my show and I would debate him. So he believed that. He said that on my show once, well they taught dogs to rape. And I just I never want to talk to you again. Like how could you believe something so stupid?
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (23:51)
It's tedious talking to dumb people.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (23:53)
Yeah, but it's also I was like, you have to hate Jews to believe something that stupid. Like it just you would never believe that about anybody else. That they could train a dog to believe the laws of nature. Like they're so evil, these conniving Jews. Like I just but I have to talk to this person. Like, what's my alternative? Like they are my fellow American. I have to. It's not I don't get a choice in this. So I like to have the biggest possible and also.
I am blessed with a few very close friends who are Palestinian, who live in the West Bank under what I would call occupation. I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that, but who are frequently targeted by settlers and by soldiers. And one of them especially, I he's a dear friend of mine. We don't agree about anything. He's not a Zionist. I feel like it's a bit of a chutzpah to ask him to be a Zionist, to be honest. Like it came at his expense. It continues to come at his expense.
He loves Jews. This is a person who loves Jews. and he wishes Israel didn't exist. And I cannot fault him for that. I cannot think he is so to me it's like I know philosophically a person can philosophically, especially I think a Palestinian, especially Palestinian who's actually suffering from the areas where Israel is not covering itself in glory. Like a person like that can be an anti-Zionist and not be a bigot.
Once you get to the United States, once you get to the West, and you have people who have created and taught this is their number one issue, like Mamdani, like El Sayyed, where this is the thing their heartbeats for. They talk about Medicare for all, but they don't care about that at all. They care about, you know, free Palestine. At that point, I'm like, all right, you just have a problem with Jews, man. And I'm not gonna humiliate myself by pretending that that is not the case. Like it's clear to all of us, and I don't feel that you know, burden of justifying this. Like the DSA is an anti-Semitic organization. They the one thing they care the most about is a conflict six thousand miles away that they know nothing about and will never be able to impact. And all they're doing is bullying these cowardly Democrats into submission. And it's a horrible thing to see. So at that point I feel like it's it just like I'm not really interested in like the details, the nitty gritty of the like I had Brad Lander on my show. So Brad Lander is a DSA, a Jewish guy who just won a DSA with the DSA against another Jew. So Brad Lander calls himself a liberal Zionist, but he caucuses with Mamdan and Darializa Avila Chevalier and all of these other absolute deplorables who want Jews to have less power. That is their number one goal in life, is for Jews to have less power. Like, is Brad Lander an anti-Semite? He's not. But is he a forced?
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (26:34)
Why, why is he not?
Batya Ungar-Sargon (26:38)
He he's a po like when you talk to him you can tell Yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (26:39)
In other words, Brad Lander is driven by a frame of moral reference that is not Judaism. It's probably Marxism or something close to that. And so he is a man of faith. It's just not the Jewish faith. It's
Batya Ungar-Sargon (26:56)
Yes, but that doesn't make him an anti Semite. That makes him
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (26:59)
But it wouldn't stop it wouldn't stop him from being an anti Semite either, would it?
Batya Ungar-Sargon (27:04)
It wouldn't, but I mean I've spoken to I just don't I think this is a person who he doesn't have any hate in his heart. He's just hopelessly naive. He's a typical reform Jew. He
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (27:12)
mm. I see, yeah. Yeah.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (27:15)
he thinks he you know, he's full of this, you know, universalist love for the underdog and what have you. It happens to be very dangerous. He's a person who should not have any power. But to me and you're right, it could be this is a distinction like is it important to make these distinctions? I guess the fact that you said he has a moral framework that's not Jewish, I totally agree. But I also agree with you that he does have a moral framework or what he thinks
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (27:41)
Yes.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (27:42)
is a moral framework.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (27:43)
Yeah. Yeah, of course. Of course. can I go ahead, Susan? Will you remember what you want to say?
Susan Lapin (27:50)
I hope so. I should I should have a pen and pad so I can write it down. because it's brilliant. I mean if I forget it. Well then go ahead. I'll go ahead. Go ahead. Batya, I'm really interested in in what you think about this point, which is that one of the deepening canyons that we see cutting through the culture is between men and women, where the radicalizing that is going on within American society is men more to the right, women more to the left politically. And this may well even have something to do with the diminishing number of marriages and family formations, because it's particularly women.
Who say I would never go out with a conservative
Batya Ungar-Sargon (28:43)
Right.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (28:43)
man. I think most men say, I'll go out with any liberal woman as long as she's hot. And
Batya Ungar-Sargon (28:47)
Yeah. Yes.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (28:49)
so that you know, that's that side of it. But since the left is moving in the direction of Jew hatred at worst, Israel hatred at best, and the right is not moving in that direction, where are we headed on that schism? And I'll add one more schism, which is age, where I think we are having more challenge with younger Republicans than we are with the more mature Republican who and so here are here are two different axes on which the country is fracturing, and there is a Jewish outcome in each of those, men and women and young and old.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (29:46)
My view on the young Republicans who are kind of less who are kind of anti-Israel is that, you know, ten years ago they would have been liberals. There was a shift to the right, as you say, among young men specifically. So they became cultural conservatives, but some of them are shifting back, and they're shifting back through this kind of anti-Zionism. And I think that these are the kinds of people who tend to grow up and then become conservative again.
As people tend to when they get older. As for the gender issue, I do think that this is an interesting conundrum. I do think that is going to have an impact on marriage, on you know, having children. there's a mating crisis that's kind of and you can see this in other populations that have similar problems.
You know, the black community is a really good example of this, to where a quarter of black men who get married marry white women, but only three percent of black women who get married marry non-black men. And you couple that with the other problems in the 20% of the population, the black population, you know, criminality and poverty and what have you, and you have a shidduch (marriage) crisis in the black community to where it is very hard for people to find partners and to get married and matched up and
I think you are gonna start seeing that in more affluent white and I think you probably are already liberal women less likely to get married, less likely to settle down, less likely to have children, because of exactly what you're pointing out, that the you know, the pool tends to have conservatives in it and they're not willing to date them. And I think it's a travesty. I will say this, Gen Z is a lot less censorious than millennials were.
They're a little fed up with the cancel culture stuff. And so I think there is kind of hope that you will start to see some of these categories kind of shifting a little bit.
Susan Lapin (31:51)
So my question was literally from the beginning of the country, and as you say, from before the before 1776, Jews were part of the country, and Jews do tend to be prominent above that they put we punch above our numbers. And I don't think it would be hard at all to go whether you want to go back to let's say 16 whatever or 1700 to today. I think we could pretty easily say, Hey, can you name twelve Jews who have helped this country, who've made America what it is, starting with Haym Solomon, who helped fund the Revolutionary War and died penniless having given away his money for this country? We could name Jews who the h the United States of America you could say might not be what it is if it wasn't for them, whether in business, whether in politics, whether in science, in all sorts of areas. Unfortunately, I think we could very easily also say, can you name twelve Jews who caused a lot of damage to this country? Who had beliefs
Batya Ungar-Sargon (32:51)
Ha ha ha.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (32:52)
and were passionate about those beliefs and led with those beliefs in causing damage. Like and that's just a reality. I kind of think it is a reality of Jews that we do we used to say I hope this isn't insulting to Episcopalians, but would say, you know, an Episcopalian wedding you go and you have punch and cake. A Jewish wedding you go and there's loud music and there's dancing and there's an excitement. We're passionate people and we have a passionate call, as you said, to have a moral vision, but when that moral vision goes in the wrong way, it could be really bad. So how would you deal with that conundrum? And even today, and I know a lot of people who I think are on the left mostly are very Happy to call see, that Jewish person or I'm not an anti Semite because they also agree with me that Jews are terrible or that Israel is committing genocide. So that's a you know, how do you kind of keep people from saying, you what, a pox on both their houses. Maybe we'd be better off if they weren't Jews.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (33:58)
I'm always amazed at how little the Jewishness of certain villains in America is ever mentioned, or like how little it seems to like if Bernie if Bernie Madoff had happened in any other country, there would have been like mass pogroms against the Jews. You know, like Jeffrey Epstein, I don't know, these are like real villains, but you don't see an uptick in anti-Semitism.
Around because they're not, I don't know. It's like you don't really the American people are just too good. Like they just don't do that. They don't
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (34:35)
Or somebody like George Soros, who has really hurt cities like Chicago
Batya Ungar-Sargon (34:38)
George Soros.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (34:39)
and San Francisco and many other cities, and he's not the locus of anti Semitic protest.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (34:45)
Yeah. I mean he tried they try his supporters on the left try to say it's anti Semitic to criticize him, which is ridiculous.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (34:51)
Ha ha ha.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (34:53)
but yeah, exactly. So I I'm really I just really believe that there's something in the in the soil here that is an antidote to hating Jews. The other thing is, you know, someone like Brad Lander, the Reform Jews, they intermarry at 75% rate and their grandchildren are most likely not to not Jewish.
Whereas Orthodox Jews have, you know, four, five, ten children, and they're they all stay Jews, and 75% of them are Republicans. So in 30 years, you'll probably have around the same number of Jews in America, but the community will be much more religious and much more Republican just by replacement. I mean, just by the numbers. And I think that's very interesting. I'm very curious to see.
You know, that will certainly amplify anti Semitism on the left, but I think it will give our allies on the right, you know, less l less agita when they're trying to think of like, you know, what the Jews represent to them.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (35:56)
So one of the things that I've said over the years when Christian friends have asked me, so you know, just between you and me, why are Jews so liberal? And if we are not seated and ready for a long conversation, but I have to give the proverbial standing on one leg answer, my answer is that it's a function of a replacement religion.
That Jews adopted when they finally got rid of the religion of Abram, Isaac, and Jacob and adopted the religion of secular fundamentalism, which has its own saints and its own villains, it's got its religious books, it's got its doctrines. It's another religion. And the point is that the more you move towards the orthodox side of the spectrum, the less progressive, the less liberal.
Jews are, you see. So it's not Judaism that is to the left. It's actually the abandonment of Judaism, leaving Jews with a desire to believe in something, and it's now no longer going to be the God who says homosexuality is wrong. We're going to make a new religion. It's a religion of progressivism. So it's, you know, don't think it's Jews doing this. It's those who've abandoned the faith of, you know, that unifies both of us, Judeo, Judeo Christian culture.
Susan Lapin (37:19)
So I'm sure you know as we do Jews who are making aliyah, who are leaving the United States. And there there's been an uptick in the since October 7th. And I think one of the things that you hear people say is, you know what, my grandparents or great grandparents did not leave Germany or Poland or Russia in time and I'm not gonna make that mistake.
And certainly Jews have been leaving France and England and, you know, those are those two countries in particular in large numbers. What would I f I feel that you like we are very patriotic Americans and really feel that there is something special about this country. What would you say to somebody who says, You know what, I don't want to you know, or either my children, I understand why my children are going to Israel.
Because I look at Mamdani in New York, I look at what's happening in Minneapolis and I say, This is the wave of the future and we're not going to be welcome in in the United States for much longer.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (38:27)
Well, you certainly won't be if we don't stay and fight. I mean, what's gonna happen if all the Jews leave America and America falls to Mamdani? You know, like who's gonna stand up for Israel then? I just think that's it's a di it's defeatist and also I think it's a betrayal of everything
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (38:44)
It's not only who will stand up for Israel then, but it's who will help restore America to its former greatness.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (38:51)
Well, yes, of course, but I'm saying from their point of view, and I just think it's a betrayal of American history. This isn't Germany. Like when the Holocaust happened, it i Europe had been steeped in Jew hatred for a thousand years. It's not like it came out of nowhere. Like, my God, where did this come from? You know, like it came from your neighbor who always hated you, you know? And they voted Hitler and he said now it's like legal, you know? Like so I just really reject that. Our history here is so the opposite of the history of Jews in Europe. And so to me, it's, I don't know, it's and also for frum (religious) Jews, I mean, things were much worse in 2018, 2019. Jews were getting Orthodox Jews were getting beaten up by black kids in Brooklyn every week. And nobody cared because it was from Jews who are the Jews of the Jews. You know, the liberal Jews had nothing say. And the perpetrators were protected
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (39:42)
And the perpetrators were a protected class.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (39:45)
class. And you know, it that was much worse than now. It was like l they were literally being beat. There was an Hanukkah of 2019. every night of Hanukkah there was a physical attack against Jews, two of them deadly. And nobody said anything, nobody cared, nobody was like, we're gonna move to Israel. So I just feel like it's a little bit like, no, stay and fight. I'm going down with this ship. Like they're gonna take this country from my cold dead hands. The chutzpah that that that Mamdani should win.
Never. No. No. We're gonna stay and fight.
Susan Lapin (40:19)
And what would you say to Christians? Because we and this is going back over thirty years. We said that the Christians were actually the canary in the canary in the mine. The coal mine. The coal mine 30 years ago, as there were all these books with titles against Christianity and on college campuses. There were college campuses where to speak about
Batya Ungar-Sargon (40:40)
Totally.
Susan Lapin (40:41)
to speak as a Christian, you had to stand in a protected box. You weren't allowed to speak anywhere
Batya Ungar-Sargon (40:45)
Totally.
Susan Lapin (40:46)
on campus. And we said this is something that's not happened before. Jews don't recognize it, but they are the canary in the coal mine.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (40:55)
And in other words, anti Jewish bigotry was nearly always punished. even in media and entertainment, unflattering depictions of Jews generally brought the wrath of the ADL down on your head and many other organizations. And
Batya Ungar-Sargon (41:08)
Right, right.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (41:09)
Christians got upset about And Christians got upset about it. But anti Christian bigotry has been it's been open season for years already.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (41:17)
And that is so true. And I tell that to Jews all the time. So when they were saying that this college students were unsafe after October 7th, and the ADL came out and said, You put us on the wrong side of the oppressed or oppressed binary. Put us with the blacks, give us the trans treatment. And I said, That's just disgusting. Like what it was not okay to treat Christians this way. It was not okay to treat conservatives this way. It was not okay to treat white people this way. And now you're waking up because they're treating you this way.
You're getting the white treatment. You're getting the conservative treatment. You're getting the Christian treatment. And that's why I feel very sanguine about it. And then that you know, America is not gonna go the way of Germany, because the Christians have our backs. By the way, the Christians whose backs we didn't have, they have our backs. The white working class has our back. You know? And it all of the same people who hate Jews right now hate all of the people who have been and remained our allies even as we voted for the Democrats by three quarters. You know, like it's truly an amazing thing to contemplate the depth of. So I really think it's we're in very good company. We should be honored to be hated by the same people who hate our Christian brothers and sisters.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (42:32)
And who hate America as there's
Batya Ungar-Sargon (42:34)
And who hate America.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (42:35)
no question about it. Yeah. Do you see any part of it being a struggle between barbarism and civilization in the sense that civilization is essentially the Hebrew Bible written onto a large canvas and barbarism elsewhere. So s anti-Semitism, anti-Americanism, anti-Israel, anti-Christianism are all manifestations of a hatred for civilization on the part of the world of barbarism. And on the other side, well, you know, they didn't call the North African coast the Barbary coast for nothing.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (43:13)
Think a lot of the people are like Mamdani in that to me he's not an Islamist at all. He's very like pro-gay, pro-trans, pro-women. it's this
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (43:23)
Yeah.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (43:23)
sort of genteel form of hatred of the West, you know, like El-Sayed and which like infected the academy. So they all hold themselves up as morally superior and you know, more cultivated, and you know, but this is the stuff, you know.
That my father would recognize as anti-Semitism from the old country, where it was always from the elites, when it wasn't from other places and the universities.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (43:48)
Yes, and the universities, yeah. Yeah.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (43:51)
So I think, you know, like there Tom Wolf wrote about this back in the day. he wrote about how the elites have this nostalgie de la boue, which means like nostalgia for the mud. wherever you have a a a middle class that's trying to cast itself as an elite, they adopt the lowest.
form of values. They side with criminals. They fall in love with guerrillas and terrorists, right? Like to show that they don't have those bourgeois values of the middle class. They are part of the elites. The way they show that is by siding with barb barbarians, right? I think that's kind of what you're alluding to.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (44:29)
I imagine you're flattered by the fact that that Israeli journalist Haviv Retig Gur calls you a political pugilist.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (44:39)
I am indeed. I am indeed. My book is -
I am a pugilist, but the book is not a screed. It is a history. And I
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (44:45)
No, yeah.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (44:46)
I held back a lot. And in fact, one of the most angry paragraphs that I wrote, it was like two pages long. And my editor took it out and he said, This paragraph does nothing but give vent to your spleen. And I was very, very grateful to him for that.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (45:00)
Can you tell us what the paragraph said?
Batya Ungar-Sargon (45:03)
it was basically me lambasting the feminists who sided with Hamas over the mass rape victims.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (45:10)
Yeah. So let's and we are if there's anything that you want to say that we haven't asked you, please we wanna give you the chance.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (45:16)
This was wonderful.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (45:18)
But that is one of the oddest things you just said something very interesting that you don't think Mamdani actually is an Islamist. Yeah.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (45:24)
Right.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (45:25)
Now the other the other view of that is that he is putting on a cover so that queers for Palestine h if he would come out and say, I think we should throw homosexuals off the roof, just like they do in Gaza.
Hey, that's how we deal with it in Islam. That would not make him that would not get him a lot of votes. And so the other view would be no, he's actually covering up by acting as if he is pro homosexual and pro feminism, et cetera, et cetera. And the mask would come off if he actually could reach the point, let's say, where Sharia law could be instituted in New York. So
Batya Ungar-Sargon (45:59)
You know, his mom is a Hindu, his father is an academic, I'm sure he's secular, and his wife is secular. I mean, have you seen the way she dresses? She doesn't c so to me it's like I think they probably look down on actual religious Muslims, the way they look down on actually religious people.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (46:18)
Interesting.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (46:19)
Overall, like there's no way his wife is gonna wear a hijab. She's obviously a very vain person. So I just really think that this is he is exactly like the people I went to PhD school with. Like he's just an over educated globalist elite who belongs to no nation. To me, he wears his Muslim religion. It's almost like cosplay. Like it's to make white progressives feel like they voted for a person of color. It's not actually like d this does not strike me as a deeply religious person.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (46:49)
Hey, that's really inter okay. That's a different way to look at it.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (46:52)
Ha ha.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (46:53)
You're an optimist in saying that you think a lot of his {Tucker Carlson's} support is bots or Candace Owens, a lot of the Nick Fuentes, that a lot of the support is bots, that they don't have the following that people think they have. But a lot of reality is perception. In other words, when someone thinks that someone is very popular, it almost doesn't matter whether they are or not. Does that make sense?
Batya Ungar-Sargon (47:17)
I think it does. I mean, Trump kicked him out of the party and then he evicted self evicted. I mean, I've been saying since he had Daryl Cooper on his show, the first Holocaust denier, this was two years ago maybe. I said to my husband, I watched that interview and I said to him, Tucker Carlson will not be at the next RNC. and I feel more confident about that every day. I don't know, what do you guys think? Do you agree with me?
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (47:44)
I also well, it depends if JD Vance I mean, this is one
Batya Ungar-Sargon (47:46)
Right.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (47:47)
of the things I worry about, JD Vance. I think and I'm sure you do agree with this, that the assassination of Charlie Kirk was a such a blow.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (47:58)
Yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (48:00)
you know, that getting rid of Charlie Kirk was in many ways grabbing hold of the younger generation because you got
Batya Ungar-Sargon (48:08)
Yeah, yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (48:09)
away the person who was standing at the gates.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (48:12)
Yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (48:13)
And so that does worry me because I think that it left a vacuum and the people who started to fill it. And again, because Tucker Carlson had been a speaker always, you know, for Turning Point, they had the opportunity to come in.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (48:30)
Yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (48:31)
so I am actually I am probably a little more worried than you are about as if people think this is cool and this is a you made a comment, I heard you in an interview, and you made a comment that people who listen to Nec Fuentes.
'Cause he's funny, even though they're not in they're pro Israel, they're pro-Jewish. And to me that is so dangerous because that is a stupid young person. Like Well
Batya Ungar-Sargon (48:51)
But I know like from guys in my shul (synagogue) listen to him.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (48:54)
that I feel is like they're being very stupid. Not you, they are being very
Batya Ungar-Sargon (48:58)
they are?
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (48:58)
stupid because humor, we know this, right? This is a biblical tenet
Batya Ungar-Sargon (49:02)
Yes.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (49:03)
that when you want to destroy someone, get people to destroy something powerful, get people to laugh at it. When you make when you mockery is seen as in Judaism, mockery is seen as a very, very evil, powerful thing. And also
Batya Ungar-Sargon (49:14)
Powerful. Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (49:17)
you cannot block out lashon Hara (evil speech). if
Batya Ungar-Sargon (49:20)
Right.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (49:20)
you could, the entire advertising industry would be shredded.
Batya Ungar-Sargon (49:24)
Ha ha ha.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (49:25)
advertising works because a repeated message, even if you don't want it, does penetrate. So I guess I do worry, I think, more than I hear you saying about younger people, because the message getting repeated over and over. And I'm not on Instagram and I'm not on whatever. I don't even know what the latest thing is, but there are people spending hours a day on this. And
Batya Ungar-Sargon (49:47)
Yeah.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (49:47)
that technology just has that ability to turn people into a mob. And
Batya Ungar-Sargon (49:52)
Mm-hmm. no, I hear you. I don't think people should listen to him, but I just I guess yeah again, like I'm just very bullish on America. I have to run to my next interview, but this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much, you guys. I enjoyed this so much. God bless. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Okay.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin (50:06)
Okay. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you so much. It's been wonderful talking with you. And we are really looking forward to reading your book and then having you on to talk about your book. Okay. Bye.
